The extreme proliferation of magic in D&D

[Altalazar]

Excellent point raised here. Complaining there is "too much magic" in D&D is like complaining there is too much technology in Star Trek or too many guns in a western.

What's the difference, anyway, between a well crafted sword that is completely non-magical, but is +1 to hit and damage and a +1 magic sword. Is a world filled with the former just fine as "low magic" while a world filled with the latter is somehow "broken cheesy high-magic"? Game-wise, there would be NO DIFFERENCE between the two (aside from damage reduction, which is no difference in a low-magic world where there are basically no creatures that have damage reduction).

 

[Aus_Snow]

So reading about the new magic book by Wizards, and I see someone note "the extreme proliferation of magic in D&D"

Is that the Incarnum book?

Where's that person's quote, by the way?

 

[Quasqueton]

Complaining there is "too much magic" in D&D is like complaining there is too much technology in Star Trek or too many guns in a western.

I love this statement. Quoted for truth.

Quasqueton

 

[helium3]

Doctors and lawyers make far more money than most people in our world, so why would people choose other professions? Obviously, because most people don't have the smarts or the work ethic needed to get into med school, and many of those who do would rather not spend 10 years in school living off mac and cheese and top ramen while their buddies are enjoying things like salries and free time.

I did a lame statistical analysis of ability scores once using excel, and I was pretty surprised at how common it was to have at least one 18 in any one stat. Basically, on average an 18 is going to be rolled once every 216 or so rolls (assuming straight 3d6). So, pretty much one in every 36 people is going to have one. So, fundamentally the game doesn't really obey the handwaving it proclaims about how "rare" PC's are with respect to "mundane" people simply by way of stats.

But then, that presumes that anyone cares. I think it's satisfactory to simply wave your hands and simply say that most people don't become adventurers for many other reasons besides not having the "stats."

But seriously, this has nothing to do with the "proliferation" of magic. From my experience, the reason that the magic level of D&D creeps upwards over time is because players come to expect a certain level of it and convince themselves that fun cannot be had without it. Either that or more and more "special effects" are needed to make things new and exciting. I think the same trend tends to be seen in your average Hollywood FX-Fest.

When I try to do weird things with the magic system in my game, my players either complain that I'm "nerfing the magic" or forcing them to learn "a new system." Both are apparently great horrors. I do think that the amount of book-keeping necessary has gotten way out of control. Someone has got to write a really simply to use computer program that allows DM's to track stuff on a round by round basis.

 

[Aaron L]

Whenever I think that there is too much magic around in D&D, I just do some reading on historical periods. The Vikings carried all sorts of stuff they considered magical: beads, charms, little gizmos attached to the pommels of thier swords. To them, they were carrying all KINDS of beneficial magic with them. Same goes with native Americans and medicine bags and such, and lots of other cultures. It doesnt make it any less realistic a medieval setting to have a fun bag full of magic charms, real Earth people carried gobs of what they believed were magic goodies too.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Whenever I think that there is too much magic around in D&D, I just do some reading on historical periods. The Vikings carried all sorts of stuff they considered magical: beads, charms, little gizmos attached to the pommels of thier swords. To them, they were carrying all KINDS of beneficial magic with them. Same goes with native Americans and medicine bags and such, and lots of other cultures. It doesnt make it any less realistic a medieval setting to have a fun bag full of magic charms, real Earth people carried gobs of what they believed were magic goodies too.

I disagree.

The assumed amount and power-levels (in the RAW - and they are there) of magic items (in particular), as well as the laughably easy access to uber-spells and Su/Sp abilities, is utterly at odds with just about any accounts of anything on or off Earth I've come across from any culture (as opposed to fiction etc.) YMMV, of course.


More importantly though, for me, my players and the campaigns I'm running, it just seems to feel 'better' - more 'plausible' - to have less magic items and so on. It's not a matter of whether it's 'real-world believable', but just less tacky, cheesy and such.

 

[greymist]

I agree that magic is integral to D&D, but I find that 3E has created an environment where the proliferation of powerful magic runs rampant. In my campaign I am trying to reduce the amount of magic level, but it really is a lot of work to try to rebalance everything. Keeping the PCs from gaining magical equipment is easy, but it does not deal with the fact that PC spellcasters keep getting new spell levels, and of course there is the problem with the inherent magic of many monsters.

I am intrigued by some of the other d20 systems that are available the might reduce the magic level. Time to head over to the reviews section!

 

[ThirdWizard]

Complaining there is "too much magic" in D&D is like complaining there is too much technology in Star Trek or too many guns in a western.

Best quote of the thread. I agree completely.

 

[helium3]

I agree that magic is integral to D&D, but I find that 3E has created an environment where the proliferation of powerful magic runs rampant. In my campaign I am trying to reduce the amount of magic level, but it really is a lot of work to try to rebalance everything. Keeping the PCs from gaining magical equipment is easy, but it does not deal with the fact that PC spellcasters keep getting new spell levels, and of course there is the problem with the inherent magic of many monsters.

I am intrigued by some of the other d20 systems that are available the might reduce the magic level. Time to head over to the reviews section!

I think that the problem here is not necessarily the level of magic, per se. It's more of a mechanistic issue. Since the whole thing is basically nothing more than a complex set of rules, there's no real difference between "magic" and "non-magic" other than the way the mechanics work.

So, the way to really ask the question is "what is the fundamental difference between the mechanics of 'magic' and the mechanics of 'mundane' and is there something fundamentally different about it?"

So seriously, what the mechanistic difference between magic and non-magic in D&D? And, I don't mean how does leveling work.

 

[Digital M@]

I have struggled with the balance of magic in a campaign world for many years. I wanted the intergration of magic into society to make sense but became frustrated while trying to intergrate it, then I read Harry Potter and all that changed. I now use mages as a seperate culture that band togther. They may not be as secretive, but by creating magical governing bodies, wizard policing squads, speical wizarding rules and an overall seperateness from mainstream society, it all fits much better.

I am also of the opinion that id my players want full run of magical items through stores and such, that I use a 25-28 point buy system. Nothing throws off the balance and therefore the ease of creating encounters than massive stat bonuses topped with optimal combinations of magical bonuses.