The extreme proliferation of magic in D&D

[helium3]

Nothing throws off the balance and therefore the ease of creating encounters than massive stat bonuses topped with optimal combinations of magical bonuses.

Oh yes. My personal favorite is when the bonus hit points from your con score is twice what the character gets from hit dice.

I don't worry too much about whether or not magic fits or seems realistic. I sorta just make some assumptions about how magic "works" both in terms of mechanics and in terms of pretend sociology, and then I try to make logical conclusions based on that. If I don't like the conclusions then I change my assumptions.

What do your players think about the way you handle magic? I know that mine would have pretty much ignored the flavor of it unless I forced them to pay attention, and then they'd complain that I was being too controlling.

 

[Merlion]

The "tons of magic" thing is baked into the reccomended equipment levels which balance fighter types vs spell casting types and the whole party against enemies. If you go low magic then your have to rebalance the class abilities and CRs.

Exactly. And many of us dont neccesarily want to take the time and energy to do that.

So it is possible, and certainlly it is under DM control, but its not something you just ~poof~ and do with no ramifications.


One of the problems is that many of the non casters (or basically non casters) in D&D dont have a whole lot by way of class abilities, and so they need magic items to compensate. Its interesting tho to see this changing a bit in 3.5 especially with the Ranger


Its also interesting to look at Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. Most of the AU/AE classes have a lot more class features than D&D classes. I bet one could scale back magic items quite a bit in such a game with little diffaculty, because most classes have more abilities of their own to rely on. And not all of them are magical. And those that are are often so in a subtler way, or one that fits the theme of the class very closely. Also, the Feats in AU both for casters and non casters offer a lot more options and abilities, on the whole, than D&D feats.


Its something I hope to see addressed in the next edition of D&D

 

[The Shaman]

Complaining there is "too much magic" in D&D is like complaining there is too much technology in Star Trek or too many guns in a western.

A clever aphorism, but a non-sequitur nonetheless.

This goes to the point that Wombat made earlier: if you don't play with the default levels of magic built into the assumptions and structure of the game, you're not playing D&D.

However, the game itself encourages GMs to personalize their campaigns - that it simultaneously makes that challenging to do is one of the weaknesses of D&D, IMHO. This is what the analogy of Star Trek and westerns misses: the technology and firepower with which magic is equated are specific to these "settings," whereas D&D bills itself as a tool for building a variety of settings.

 

[WayneLigon]

In D&D who is better at putting game in the pot, Bob who went to ranger school and has a BAB +1 to hit with his bow, or John who went to mage school and can cast true strike twice a day?

Bob is. Bob can use his +1 to hit, plus his probably very good Dex bonus of say +2 to bag game all day long until his 50 or so arrows run out. The village hails Bob as a great hunter.

John can certainly hit that rabbit, now can't he! Twice, at a -4 unless he's snuck up on it (and we know how sneaky mages are) with a dagger or his staff. That won't feed the village! And they don't have time for John to come back and sleep for eight hours to get those spells back, even if that were possible since he just got up an hour or so ago. After that, he has no BAB, probably no Dex bonus and on top of that he sucks at using a bow because he's spent all his time learning to cast that one spell, so he's lucky to bag even one or two more rabbits after those first two. John is sent to skin the rabbits, pluck the quails and clean all the speared fish Bob brought back.

 

[VirgilCaine]

After 30 years, Dungeons & Dragons has successfully established itself as it's own subgenre of fantasy in our worldwide subculture, and has influence modern fantasy writing, movies, video games, ect. It's not just Gandalf & Conan anymore.

It always was a patchwork, even from the beginning.
It wasn't just Gandalf and Conan, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, a little Call of Cthulhu, some Narnia, some King Arthur.
D&D is it's own genre of fantasy.
Saying fantasy heroes or legendary figures don't have as many magic items is asinine.

I have struggled with the balance of magic in a campaign world for many years. I wanted the intergration of magic into society to make sense but became frustrated while trying to intergrate it, then I read Harry Potter and all that changed. I now use mages as a seperate culture that band togther. They may not be as secretive, but by creating magical governing bodies, wizard policing squads, speical wizarding rules and an overall seperateness from mainstream society, it all fits much better.

With the tiny amounts of spellcasters above 1st level, and the focus of spells on serving small numbers of people (see how few people Create Food and Water works for), what kinds of problems would you have?

Decanters of Endless Water, okay, maybe. Irrigation, sanitation, fresh water in cities, okay.

Bob is. Bob can use his +1 to hit, plus his probably very good Dex bonus of say +2 to bag game all day long until his 50 or so arrows run out. The village hails Bob as a great hunter.

John can certainly hit that rabbit, now can't he! Twice, at a -4 unless he's snuck up on it (and we know how sneaky mages are) with a dagger or his staff. That won't feed the village! And they don't have time for John to come back and sleep for eight hours to get those spells back, even if that were possible since he just got up an hour or so ago. After that, he has no BAB, probably no Dex bonus and on top of that he sucks at using a bow because he's spent all his time learning to cast that one spell, so he's lucky to bag even one or two more rabbits after those first two. John is sent to skin the rabbits, pluck the quails and clean all the speared fish Bob brought back.

No, but John can certainly spank those deer and moose with his Heavy Crossbow, can't he! He can sure hit them from far off, every time!

 

[The Shaman]

D&D is it's (sic) own genre of fantasy.

I think to a certain extent this is true, but given that the game is meant to be a toolbox suitable for playing in a variety of fantasy subgenres - says so right in the books - it's not the exclusive way to enjoy the game.

Saying fantasy heroes or legendary figures don't have as many magic items is asinine.

Quick, what was the name of Conan's magic sword? What sort of enchantments does Nægling have? How many magic items does Holger Carlson carry?

 

[Quasqueton]

whereas D&D bills itself as a tool for building a variety of settings.

says so right in the books

Where does it say this?

Quick, what was the name of Conan's magic sword? What sort of enchantments does Nægling have? How many magic items does Holger Carlson carry?

Conan had many swords through his career -- and nobody names +1 and +2 swords. (He prefered spending his treasure on wine and women more than powergaming his equipment.)

I have no idea what the other two names are.

Quasqueton

 

[JoeGKushner]

I think to a certain extent this is true, but given that the game is meant to be a toolbox suitable for playing in a variety of fantasy subgenres - says so right in the books - it's not the exclusive way to enjoy the game.Quick, what was the name of Conan's magic sword? What sort of enchantments does Nægling have? How many magic items does Holger Carlson carry?

I know one of Conan's magical swords was the Phoenix Blade. He needed it to kill some weird critter in one of the old Robert E. Howard tales. Was that the one where he was visited by the dead wizard? Ah, so many old memories. Don't regonize Holger Carlson or the other name.

But if you look at other mythologies, like Norse, yeah, they had magical swords, helmets, armor, and even fought more mythical monsters than the typical Conan story.

 

[The Shaman]

Conan had many swords through his career -- and nobody names +1 and +2 swords. (He prefered spending his treasure on wine and women more than powergaming his equipment.)

Conan didn't carry a succession of +1 or +2 magic weapons - he frequently lost all his gear and made do with whatever he could find. Magic weapons rare in the Conan saga.

The point about how he spent his treasure is worth highlighting - how many players do you know (other than diaglo) spend all their loot on ale and whores? No, most of them are saving for a +4 glittering bursting keen vorpal sword of wounding badassness or the staff of limitless broken metamagic enhancements.

I know one of Conan's magical swords was the Phoenix Blade. He needed it to kill some weird critter in one of the old Robert E. Howard tales. Was that the one where he was visited by the dead wizard?

That sounds right.

Throughout the stories he rarely uses magic, however, certainly far less than the average adventuring party in the default D&D rules.

Don't regonize Holger Carlson or the other name.

Holger is from Three Hearts and Three Lions - Nægling was Beowulf's heirloom sword, the one he broke on the dragon's head.

But if you look at other mythologies, like Norse, yeah, they had magical swords, helmets, armor, and even fought more mythical monsters than the typical Conan story.

My point exactly - if the D&D game I want to run is closer to Conan in terms of feel, the default levels of magic need to be tweaked. I can homebrew it, or use some of the resources you mentioned earlier in the thread, but in any case the assumptions built into the game-system must be addressed. The suggestions by other posters that magic is not built in, or that it's not highly prevalent, based on the core rules is simply incorrect, IMHO.

JoeGKushner, I agree that a +1 magic sword and a +1 masterwork weapon are functionally equivalent, but I would much rather create a border patrol armed with masterwork swords and bows than magic weapons to keep that feel of magic being special and unusual. I also like to use singular items with significant histories, as I believe you suggested earlier.

Where does it say this?

In the chapters on world-building and campaign creation, and in the dozens of variant rules provided throughout the core rule books - and that's without bringing in Unearthed Arcana or the splatbooks.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The suggestions by other posters that magic is not built in, or that it's not highly prevalent, based on the core rules is simply incorrect, IMHO.

That I agree with. I just don't think it's that difficult to handle. If it was, I'd just move to another iteration of the d20 system when I need that type of campaign. Since I mostly stick with GH and FR, it hasn't been a real issue for me.