The extreme proliferation of magic in D&D

[ThirdWizard]

I have run high-magic games, and for me the problem wasn't that there was too much magic (the setting was intended to have lots of magic, after all), but rather the amount of book-keeping.

If you don't use it, sell it. Solves that problem.

I think that we should tread carefully when saying that anything outside the base assumptions of D&D isn't D&D. This kind of thinking makes it seem like up until now D&D wasn't D&D either. Call me crazy but 0D&D, AD&D, 2e, 3e and 3.5e are very different systems.

They'll all be D&D by definition. I'm not sure what relevance it has, but the question becomes how much do you have to change for your home campaign before you arn't playing D&D anymore. Some people are going to say one house rule and you arn't playing D&D. Others are going to give lots of leeway such as changing all the classes completely or making a whole new spell list.

Personally, I don't care what you call it as long as you're having fun. My only thought is that D&D itself is built as a high fantasy game, with lots of magic. People will still complain though. For example, some people think a single high level person shouldn't be able to take out an army of low level people. Of course, this is possible in D&D. It isn't a flaw, its a feature. Just like magic. This isn't the general all purpose game that some make it out to be.

Now, d20 has done a lot for that, and I think that's awesome. I think Iron Heroes is a great low magic game. Grim Tales is a great Grim & Gritty game. Better to pick up one of them than to wish D&D didn't have wealth guildlines built into the system.

 

[der_kluge]

D&D as written is not really a game I have any interest in playing anymore. It starts out harmless enough, but the higher the levels go, the more out of hand it becomes. Eventually, the party is fighting through swathes of Slaad and pits full of demons, and it becomes rather out of control. That's RAW.

I don't think this really has anything to do with magic items, per se, though if you follow the guidelines in the text, it's really outrageous. A lot of it has to do with the number of spells, and the stat bonuses, and class abilities, and the fast level progression, and feats, and prestige classes, and all the other "tools" that PCs can utilize to maximize their potential.


I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this style of play, but it definitely does have a very specific style. It's not a style I'm interested in pursuing long-term.

 

[Crothian]

It starts out harmless enough, but the higher the levels go, the more out of hand it becomes. Eventually, the party is fighting through swathes of Slaad and pits full of demons, and it becomes rather out of control. That's RAW.

it doesn't have to though. It is written to make this the easiest and it also might be what is expected but by the RAW you don't have to go this way.

I don't think this really has anything to do with magic items, per se, though if you follow the guidelines in the text, it's really outrageous. A lot of it has to do with the number of spells, and the stat bonuses, and class abilities, and the fast level progression, and feats, and prestige classes, and all the other "tools" that PCs can utilize to maximize their potential.

Its the maximize that is the key word there and that is a player thing. The rules do not set it up to force players to maximize thioer characters. In fact the rules don't even show one how to do it. Maximizing is a player thing and the blame has to be laid there.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this style of play, but it definitely does have a very specific style. It's not a style I'm interested in pursuing long-term.

It has a style of least resistance but the game, like any game, can support all styles.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I think that we should tread carefully when saying that anything outside the base assumptions of D&D isn't D&D. This kind of thinking makes it seem like up until now D&D wasn't D&D either. Call me crazy but 0D&D, AD&D, 2e, 3e and 3.5e are very different systems.

I don't think either Arcana Evolved or Iron Heroes are D&D because they are both deliberately not D&D. Arcana Evolved takes the D&D system and changes many of its assumptions - no arcane/divine magic divide, three ranks of spells within each level, nearly every class makes direct use of magical effects, and so on. Iron Heroes goes the other way - stripping out the magical artefacts which have been a part of the game since virtually the very beginning.

 

[WayneLigon]

You're in Alabama. Go to any sporting goods store and ask the guy behind the counter who's a better hunter, the guy who can make one perfect shot, or the guy with a pocketfull of ammo.

Save that in D&D, the 'pefect shot' doesn't matter unless it's alsoi a crit. Unless it's a bow built for strength and you're darn strong, no arrow can kill a deer with one shot unless it crits (assuming a deer has a normal max of like 10hp) - the mage doesn't even have that option since he's using a crossbow, which can't be built for strength. It'll never kill a moose even if it is a crit. So he has a +20 to his roll and hits; so what? He can only do it once per time he has the spell prepared. Bob the hunter can do it again and again at his normal, higher chance to hit. Then he can go hunt another creature and another.

 

[genshou]

You're in Alabama. Go to any sporting goods store and ask the guy behind the counter who's a better hunter, the guy who can make one perfect shot, or the guy with a pocketfull of ammo.

And then ask the guy behind the counter who's a better hunter: the guy who can track, study natural surroundings, and keep hidden; or the frail, bookish guy who can't do any of these things, but can get off a perfect shot IF he gives his position away first by speaking while making odd gestures.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

Sitting to think about it...naw, I really don't worry too much about a proliferation of low level magic items in a D&D world. I'm starting to think in terms of how much any authority group would have a problem with magic items.

A measly +1 to attack and damage for Bob the Guard, or a +1 to saves because Lucy has that "Lucky" ring she inherited from Grandma Esmerelda isn't a big deal, and I can't imagine the authorities caring all too much either.

It's when Ned Shakeshaft has a Helm of Brilliance and demands the local squire marries off his daughter to him and names Ned his heir. That's when there's a problem...

...

...

...

...for the baron. If he cares.

 

[genshou]

Sitting to think about it...naw, I really don't worry too much about a proliferation of low level magic items in a D&D world. I'm starting to think in terms of how much any authority group would have a problem with magic items.

A measly +1 to attack and damage for Bob the Guard, or a +1 to saves because Lucy has that "Lucky" ring she inherited from Grandma Esmerelda isn't a big deal, and I can't imagine the authorities caring all too much either.

It's when Ned Shakeshaft has a Helm of Brilliance and demands the local squire marries off his daughter to him and names Ned his heir. That's when there's a problem...

...

...

...

...for the baron. If he cares.

Just remember that there's always a bigger fish...

Just because a PC has his nifty helm of brilliance, that doesn't mean he's suddenly all-powerful. Just call in an adventuring group with higher character levels and even more magic item proliferation. Problem solved.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

Just remember that there's always a bigger fish...

Just because a PC has his nifty helm of brilliance, that doesn't mean he's suddenly all-powerful. Just call in an adventuring group with higher character levels and even more magic item proliferation. Problem solved.

I know that. Hence the example, but what if the baron hates the squire and for some reason doesn't stop ol' Ned from getting his way because of his helm? I'm also applying this to the "logic" of the setting at large.

Earlier in the thread Eberron's Explorer's Guide was cited for having border patrols with +1 swords. That's easily managable and not a big deal. Unless the PCs go out of their way to fight border patrols on a consistent basis (which, being D&D, might not be an uncommon thing after all), whatever items many NPCs have shouldn't really matter. It's what items are on NPCs that PCs interact with that matter. Plus having small magic items are good set ups for adventures for low-level parties.

I.e. Guards go missing in a border fort. After some investigation the PCs eventually discover that one guard, Aramil, got really drunk, bet and lost Grandpa's sword, which was marked by that mighty smith, +1. Sobering up and realizing what happened he tries to get it back from his fellow guard. Fellow guard says "no, you lost it fair and square," even though he knows it's wrong to so blatantly cheat someone...he just finds said sword to be quite handy, especially when he ran into a grick on patrol. So in a fit of rage, Aramil caves the other guard's head in, takes his sword back and does a runner, falling in with some brigands.

I'd only really have a problem, and I would imagine any power figure would too, is if you have lots of people whose loyalty you don't have, and they have Staffs of Wonder and Wands of Fireballs. Not only is it debilitating to the running of the game ("Heh! And to think, all I had to do was kill the stableboy!"), to think inside the game, it'd be a lot of trouble for burgomeisters, kings and things, and that's what I was trying to get at. To boil it down: Magical item proliferation should/would be controlled by whatever power groups have a vested interest in keeping magical item proliferation down, thus creating a natural in-game control to magical item proliferation, ensuring that the powerful have powerful items and destroying those who do have them, or destroying or stealing their items otherwise. So, yeah. I'm ok with the proliferation of magic items in D&D.

 

[scourger]

D&D as written is not really a game I have any interest in playing anymore. It starts out harmless enough, but the higher the levels go, the more out of hand it becomes. Eventually, the party is fighting through swathes of Slaad and pits full of demons, and it becomes rather out of control. That's RAW.

I don't think this really has anything to do with magic items, per se, though if you follow the guidelines in the text, it's really outrageous. A lot of it has to do with the number of spells, and the stat bonuses, and class abilities, and the fast level progression, and feats, and prestige classes, and all the other "tools" that PCs can utilize to maximize their potential.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this style of play, but it definitely does have a very specific style. It's not a style I'm interested in pursuing long-term.

This is how I'm beginning to feel. There's too much bookkeeping, starting at mid-levels (about 6-7). It's a lot of work to play the game--as a player. It's too much work to play as DM. It's great at low levels, but it just gets out of hand too quickly. I single out magic as the "problem" because it's the biggest target and the thing I like the least. Skills, feats & combat stuff are all pretty complicated (and complicating), too; but those things are what I like about d20 and make it a better game for me.