D&D 5E The Fighter Battlemaster Maneuvers

[DEFCON 1]

I've actually been working on putting together a new way of using the Maneuver system that sounds like it is doing a little like what you are asking for. I've basically been trying to adapt the 7th Sea RPG's version of their "swordsman schools" into the game using the Maneuver system.

For this new campaign I'm looking to put together that is more "swordfighting" and swashbuckler-esque, I'm basically removing most of the classes from the game (primarily the spellcasters) and creating new types of warrior "subclasses" that use specific Maneuvers like the Cavalier does. Then to give me more variety and options, I'm turning several of the removed class abilities into new Maneuvers. So for example... as I've removed the Bard from this system (as a spellcaster class), I've added 'Inspire' to the list of Maneuvers-- thus allowing a PC to use their Superiority die to inspire another PC the same way a Bard would have using Bardic Inspiration. Another example is that as I wanted to give 'Lunge' a bit more oomph because my games do not tend to see Reach being all that useful or used, I added the Barbarian's 'Reckless Attack' ability to the 'Lunge' maneuver. So now as a swordfighter you can lunge forward for a better and longer attack (gaining Advantage and an extra 5' reach), but you leave yourself open for counter-attacks (giving Advantage to enemies for the rest of the round.) At this point I'm up to 19 different Maneuvers (some left as is, some edited, some added) and now it's just a matter of creating "Swordsman Schools" (IE subclasses) that bind them together in groups that make sense. This way I can determine for myself which maneuvers get bundled together so it's not a matter of any player picking and choosing the "best" ones all the time. If you are trained in a fighting style that is more precise and technically sound so that hitting more often is important (so more of a fencing weapon style where you might get Precision Attack)... you wouldn't then also get maneuvers that are meant for heavier weapons or more corps de corps fighting (like Pushing Attack, Sweeping Attack or Trip Attack.)

On top of this system, I'm also trying to work out how I want to do the Fighting Styles, because I'm also looking at removing Feats from this system and yet want to keep some abilities you would get with certain Feats. One thing I'm trying out in design is giving Fighting Styles two levels of abilities-- the second level oftentimes being a specific Feat adapted for it. So for example, the second level of the Two-Weapon Fighting Style is the stuff you get with the Dual Wielder Feat, and the second level of the Protection style is the Shield Master feat abilities.

The biggest thing I need to work out at this point is how I want to combine these systems together to be a workable whole. As I see it coming together, certain Maneuver packages make sense for certain Fighting Styles but not so much for other ones, so I want to make sure they work together well, are balanced amongst each other, but also don't restrict choice too much. It's a difficult balance, but one that has been interesting to work out.

In case anyone is interested, here is my current list of what I have for my Maneuvers and my two levels of Fighting Styles. What comes next for me is to start bundling these packages together to create "Swordsman Schools" that become like the "classes" available to take. (And yes, while I'm calling them "Swordsman Schools" in honor of 7th Sea, I realize most of them won't necessarily be using swords as their weapons.) I'm thinking that I might end up just go all-in on the complete 7th Sea swordsman school idea, where each school has three levels of abilities (Apprentice, Journeyman, Master) and four sword skills per school. So that this would be the way to bundle a Fighting Style to a specific set of Maneuvers, plus I can grade up the three levels of styles/feats from least to most powerful. I'll be curious to see how it goes.

FIGHTING STYLES

-Archery
Level 1: Against targets within 30 feet of you, your ranged attacks ignore half-cover, and three-quarters cover is considered half-cover to you.
Level 2: You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls you make with ranged weapons.

-Defense
Level 1: While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.
Level 2: While you are wearing armor, you gain another +1 bonus to AC and no longer have Disadvantage on Stealth checks.

-Dueling
Level 1: When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.
Level 2: ??

-Great Weapon Fighting
Level 1: When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit.
Level 2: You may take a penalty to your attack roll equal to your proficiency bonus, and if you hit with your attack you may add double your proficiency bonus to your damage.

-Shield Fighting
Level 1: While wielding a shield, when a creature you can see attacks a target other than you that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll.
Level 2: You may add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throws that you make, and if you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half-damage, you can use your Reaction to instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw.

-Thrown Weapon Fighting
Level 1: All weapons with the Thrown property are considered Finesse weapons for you and their damage die size increases one step. You can also draw a thrown weapon as part of the attack made with that weapon.
Level 2: Against targets within 30 feet of you, your ranged attacks ignore half-cover, and three-quarters cover is considered half-cover to you.

-Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 1: When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
Level 2: When you engage in two-weapon fighting, your weapons no longer need to be Light, and you gain a +1 bonus to AC.

MANEUVERS

-Aim- When you make a weapon attack roll against a creature, you can expend one superiority die to take careful aim and make it easier to hit. Roll the superiority die and add it to your attack roll. You can use this maneuver after making the attack roll, but before any effects of the attack are applied.

-Charge- When you take the Dash action and end your movement adjacent to a creature, you can expend one superiority die to attack that enemy. Make a single melee weapon attack against that opponent and add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll if you hit.

-Cleave- When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to damage another creature with the same attack. Choose another creature within 5 feet of the original target and within your reach. If the original attack roll would also hit the second creature, both creatures take damage equal to the number you roll on your superiority die.

-Direct- When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo one of your attacks to direct one of your companions to strike. Use a bonus action and expend one superiority die to choose a friendly creature which can see or hear you. That creature can immediately use its reaction to make one weapon attack, adding the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll.

-Disarm- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to disarm the target, forcing it to drop one item of your choice that it’s holding. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and the target must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, it drops the object you choose. The object lands at its feet.

-Distract- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to distract the creature, giving your allies an opening. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll and the next attack roll against the target by an attacker other than you has advantage if the attack is made before the start of your next turn.

-Evade- When you move, you can expend one superiority die to make it more difficult for other creatures to hit you. Roll the superiority die and add the number rolled to your AC until you stop moving.

-Feint- When you make a melee weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint, throwing your target off-balance and making it easier to hit it. You have advantage on your next attack roll against that creature. If that attack hits, add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll.

-Goad- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to goad the target into attacking you. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target has disadvantage on all attack rolls against targets other than you until the end of your next turn.

-Hook- When you succeed with a grapple check against a creature, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to restrain the target. You add the superiority die as bonus damage to the grapple, and the target must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you restrain the target.

-Inspire- You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action to inspire an ally. Choose one creature within 60 feet of you who can hear you. Once within the next 10 minutes, the creature can roll the superiority die and add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes.

-Lunge- When you make a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can expend one superiority die to lunge forward, widening your opening for the attack but leaving you open for easier attacks in return. You increase your reach for your attack by 5 feet and gain advantage on the attack roll, and if you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll. However, all attacks made against you until the start of your next turn also have advantage.

-Maneuver- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to maneuver one of your comrades into a more advantageous position. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and you choose a friendly creature which can see or hear you. That creature can use its reaction to move up to half its speed without provoking opportunity attacks from the target of your attack.

-Menace- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to frighten the target. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

-Parry- When another creature damages you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction and expend one superiority die to parry part of the attack to cause less damage. Reduce the damage by the number you roll on your superiority die + your Dexterity modifier.

-Push- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to drive the target back. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and if the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you push the target up to 15 feet away from you.

-Rally- On your turn, you can use a bonus action and expend one superiority die to bolster the resolve of one of your companions. When you do so, choose a friendly creature which can see or hear you. That creature gains temporary hit points equal to the superiority die roll + your Charisma modifier.

-Riposte- When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can expend one superiority die to make an immediate counterattack. Use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the creature and if you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll.

-Tag- When a creature makes a melee weapon attack against you, you can expend one superiority die to confuse him with some derring-do and make it less likely for the attack to hit. The creature must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, you roll the superiority die and subtract it from the creature's attack roll. You can use this maneuver after the creature makes their attack roll, but before any effects of the attack are applied.

-Trip- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to knock the target down. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and if the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you knock the target prone.

 

[DaviMMS]

Interesting you would call disarming terrible. First, there's nothing in the rules to my knowledge to say the fighter can't just reach over and pick up the dropped weapon, if he has a free hand. Or that another character couldn't do it. Of course, a DM could rule otherwise. I guess if you assume most DMs would disallow it, that suggests that it is potentially powerful.

If your DM does say you can't pick up weapon at another creature's feet, then all you need is a push or other forced movement. That isn't hard to arrange, by yourself or with other party members. Failing that, get a player with mage hand.

And if you succeed in taking the weapon, then in many cases you've virtually shut down your opponent. That doesn't seem weak to me!

The problem is that almost every single optimized melee build has both hands occupied.

If you use one handed + shield, you need to drop your weapon to pick your enemies weapon.

If you use twf you need to drop your weapon too.

If you're GWF or Archery you can pick it, but then you also can't use your weapon.

Only some casters and monks usually don't use their 2 hands while fighting.

But lets say you coordenate with your ally and pick the weapon. (needs someone to be close and between you and the enemy in the turn order)

Disarming only applies if your enemies use weapons. That means humanoids and some large and huge brutes.

Large brutes generally have High Str scores to not be easily disarmed.

Humanoids have no excuse to not carry side weapons, even if just a dagger or two. It will probably make them less effective, but does not make it useless.

That said, I probably was to harsh putting it besides sweepping and lunging, but it has some really big problems from my point of view

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[ExploderWizard]

That goes against how almost all other subclasses of the game were made, that's the problem. Almost every single subclass or the game tries to focus on a theme, except the fighter ones.

And we would not even need that many subclasses. One focusing on one or couple of Fighting Styles would already be enough.

Slayer = GWM
Knight = Protection and Dueling
Archer = Archery
Duelist = 1 one handed weapon (no shield) and TWF.

Leave defense as a generic FS for anyone. That would already cover the basics pretty well without subclass bloat.

The problem with the current ones is that they leave no thematic space for additional archetypes of the mundane fighter.

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I have no earthly idea what you mean by " thematic space". All I see more subclasses doing for the fighter is contributing to the one trick pony syndrome. I think backgrounds do enough in providing a character theme. Most often people mistake "theme" for mechanical do-dads that make the character good at one stupid pet trick. This level of proficiency is then the new "standard" and doing anything else becomes suboptimal. This in turn leads to a sense of resentment when the stupid trick is non-applicable to a given situation. The resentment becomes a sense of entitlement to always use the favorite toy which in turn eventually infests the nature of the game rules themselves to cater to such entitlement.

Doubt that it happens? Attack a 4E fighter with flying creatures who can actually attack without landing and watch him cry. Put a double specialized fighter in a situation where the chosen weapon is unavailable.

 

[jaelis]

In my campaign opponents with weapons are pretty common, as are rogues with a free hand or wizards with mage hand.

It is true that if your DM simply says most weapon-carrying creatures have extra weapons, then disarming becomes much less effective. If your DM plays it as the Monster Manual says, though, then they typically don't.

 

[Corwin]

If a DM finds there are maneuvers that don't seem to come up or have value, maybe that says something about the kind of game they prefer run rather than the maneuvers themselves? And so what one table sees as a worthless maneuver, another table might find endless value in.

Which is another way of saying, "One man's trash is another man's treasure."

You can't objectively rank subjective worth.

 

[jaelis]

If a DM finds there are maneuvers that don't seem to come up or have value, maybe that says something about the kind of game they prefer run rather than the maneuvers themselves? And so what one table sees as a worthless maneuver, another table might find endless value in.

Which is another way of saying, "One man's trash is another man's treasure."

You can't objectively rank subjective worth.

I think this is pretty true. For instance I would not rate Commander's Strike very highly, and I would put Sweeping Strike in the middle (since it is often good vs hordes).

That said, I think lunging attack is almost always going to be bad

 

[Corwin]

I think this is pretty true. For instance I would not rate Commander's Strike very highly, and I would put Sweeping Strike in the middle (since it is often good vs hordes).

That said, I think lunging attack is almost always going to be bad

I think another huge immeasurable is party composition.

I could see lunging attack being useful. If you are in a group that has a couple tank-style warrior types in front of you who like to plug up, or bottleneck, choke points. With you behind them getting a few stabs in when it really counts. It may also come up as useful combined with a reach weapon, or even the polearm master feat, once and awhile.

I think every single maneuver in the PHB can be seen to have substantive value, given a combination of the playstyle of the table and party composition. Without exception.

 

[DaviMMS]

I think another huge immeasurable is party composition.

I could see lunging attack being useful. If you are in a group that has a couple tank-style warrior types in front of you who like to plug up, or bottleneck, choke points. With you behind them getting a few stabs in when it really counts. It may also come up as useful combined with a reach weapon, or even the polearm master feat, once and awhile.

I think every single maneuver in the PHB can be seen to have substantive value, given a combination of the playstyle of the table and party composition. Without exception.

Having value =/= as good as other options.

I agree that I was too harsh on Distracting, and would put it on average tier now.

But Lunging can hardly ever be usefull and is not that good even when it applies as it only works on a single attack per SD, so if the enemy is not on your normal reach you are reduced to using SD on every attack and then having to resort to other options like any other BM without lunging.

And sweeping in not that good even against hordes as the damage it does is not enough to drop even a single goblin unless you roll high.

The two above are the most problematic , the rest I put on the average tier. That means they are good but overshadowed by the best options due to smaller applicabily, a little less power or some other reason.

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[Corwin]

Having value =/= as good as other options.

Now if only you could objectively determine which are which...

I agree that I was too harsh on Distracting, and would put it on average tier now.

But Lunging can hardly ever be usefull and is not that good even when it applies as it only works on a single attack per SD, so if the enemy is not on your normal reach you are reduced to using SD on every attack and then doing nothing once the dice ends.

And sweeping in not that good even against hordes as the damage it does is not enough to drop even a single goblin unless you roll high.

The two above are the most problematic , the rest I put on the average tier. That means they are good but overshadowed by the best options due to smaller applicabily, a little less power or some other reason.

I do like how you say all these things like they are facts, at least. I'll give you that. Your commitment to your opinions, and your confidence, aren't nothing.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

There are better maneuvers than others. But forcing players to 'stack' them is arbitrary and unnecessary, running into the same problem that feat pre-reqs created. If you play a Battlemaster long enough you will need to choose some of the less popular ones and use them occasionally. That said, not everyone takes maneuvers to optimize, some actually select them based on character, too.