The first round of combat [Ready actions]

[Ziggy]

Hi!

Lately I've become quite dissatisfied with the way 3E handles the first round of combat. While the system works well whenever there is an element of surprise (the surprise round is an excellent idea), it don't handle encounters where all involved expect combat very well.

The most annoying thing is the "blanket of confusion" that hits the battlefield when an encounter goes into combat rounds. Everybody freezes (and most become flatfooted) until their initiative, something that is quite unlike real life.

Consider the example where an Evil Bad Guy (EBG) confronts the PCs for a parley. He is a frail, but well-prepared gentleman, and has snipers on the roof with bows trained on the PCs, some bodyguards for close protection, and a wizard on hand with standing orders to teleport him away if anything violent occurs. But negotiations break down, and hell breaks loose as the PCs charge the EBG.

If the encounter already is into combat rounds the setup works perfectly (for the EBG), as the snipers, bodyguards and the wizard have readied actions, and the PCs are filled with arrows while the EBG teleports away.

But if we do this as the start of combat, the system works quite differently. Both sides definitely expect trouble, thus nobody is surprised. Then everybody roll initiative, and waits for their turn. If the EBG and his minions win initiative they ready actions, and everything works as above.

But if the PCs win initiative, they charge the EBG, and probably take him out while the snipers, bodyguards and wizard scratch their head wondering what happened

This is clearly very unrealistic (even for a fantasy game like 3E), and there is a possible fix for it. You could allow ready actions at the start of combat (as long as you are not surprised), determined in the order of initiative. After all ready actions have been declared, regular combat starts with those involved that didn't declare ready actions. Ready actions are then resolved (or not) when they trigger normally.

The main problem with this approach is that you might get a bunch of people declaring ready actions at the start of each combat, and the first turn then degenerates into a flurry of ready actions. But the price you pay for readying an action is flexibility, and combined with the fact that you can do only partial actions, I'm pretty sure this problem will not be too common.

I have not tried this idea in practice yet, and would like comments and suggestions on its viability before I try it out IMC

.Ziggy

 

[ForceUser]

if everyone readied actions, they'd still have to go in the order they'd readied them. In other words, there would still be an initiative order, so the change would be largely transparent. It seems to me that your real gripe is that the PCs are capable of winning the initiative and destroying your EBG before he has time to react. I could suggest multiple scenarios that don't place your EBG in such a compromosing position as the one you detailed.

However, if you really just dislike the fact that everyone is flat-footed before they take their first turn, rule-zero it. You could argue that if both parties are aware of one another and combat is a distinct possibility or imminent reality, noone is flat-footed. That would be an easier solution than what you propose.

Myself, I like the rules as-is. Had the scenario you provided been mine, the EBG would have had protections already in place, such as stoneskin, protection from elements, and spell resistance. Also, he might have worn a ring of spell turning or other protective items. Like with your scenario, the bad guys would be on readied actions to attack at the first sign of PC agression, and the wizard on a ready to teleport him to safety. Alternately, the EBG could have given explicit instructions to his wizard, and the EBG the PCs parlayed with could have been a figment - an illusion created by the wizard. if the EBG were truly frail, I would have had him parlay through a minion or a magic mouth.

There are option available within the game without having to change the way combat works.

 

[Ziggy]

if everyone readied actions, they'd still have to go in the order they'd readied them. In other words, there would still be an initiative order, so the change would be largely transparent. It seems to me that your real gripe is that the PCs are capable of winning the initiative and destroying your EBG before he has time to react. I could suggest multiple scenarios that don't place your EBG in such a compromosing position as the one you detailed.

That is correct, assuming that every combatant has "standing orders", i.e. has a predetermined plan before combat. In a real situation this would mainly be relevant for bodyguards, but (as I noted in my post) the change I suggest don't make sense if everybody readies in the first round. I still think that would be an anomaly.

And the example is not from my campaign, but based on a situation described by RangerWickett in the General Discussion Forum. My EBG's usually buff like you suggest below

However, if you really just dislike the fact that everyone is flat-footed before they take their first turn, rule-zero it. You could argue that if both parties are aware of one another and combat is a distinct possibility or imminent reality, noone is flat-footed. That would be an easier solution than what you propose.

Flatfooted is not really a problem, what I gripe about is the inability to ready actions. I find it irritating that standing order suddenly are forgotten just because combat starts.

Myself, I like the rules as-is. Had the scenario you provided been mine, the EBG would have had protections already in place, such as stoneskin, protection from elements, and spell resistance. Also, he might have worn a ring of spell turning or other protective items. Like with your scenario, the bad guys would be on readied actions to attack at the first sign of PC agression, and the wizard on a ready to teleport him to safety. Alternately, the EBG could have given explicit instructions to his wizard, and the EBG the PCs parlayed with could have been a figment - an illusion created by the wizard. if the EBG were truly frail, I would have had him parlay through a minion or a magic mouth.

There are option available within the game without having to change the way combat works.

True, this way the EBG is not killed even though his bodyguards are useless.

But consider the case where the party and some monsters are on opposite sides of a door, and both are aware of each other (I've been in this situation several times in different campaigns). If you play by the book you tend to get very strange combats, where one PC (or monster) opens the door, and the rest lingers around for a while until their initiative comes up. If you could ready action (before combat) you could have one opening the door, with the rest ready to shoot or charge through.

.Ziggy

[Edit: can't spell]

 

[0-hr]

That's a good point and well reflects the rules as I understand them. You'll need a way to figure out which readied actions go first though (for when multiple people are readying for the same event). I think that it is a fair trade off to let someone ready an action before combat, but then force them to do nothing in that first round if their ready action does not come up. You should limit what sort of things people can ready for though, otherwise your players might all "ready an attack if there is a monster on the other side of this door". If you limit them to conditions that specify only things that they are already aware of, that might take care of most problems.

If I were going to implement something like this, I'd rename it something like "Precombat Preparation" to distinguish it from a Ready Action. Then list out what exactly it does. ie:

Given time and a full understanding of the situation, a person can prepare a partial action outside of combat. This action is like a Ready Action in that it must specify a condition and it will interrupt that triggering condition should it occur. If combat starts while a person has a precombat action prepared, then it is possible that they will get to act even before their normal initiative count.

Roll initiative and start combat normally. Anyone with a precombat action prepared will not get to act when their first opportunity in the initiative sequence comes around. Instead, if (and only if) the triggering condition occurs, then the prepared action can be taken immediately (changing that person's initiative accordingly).

If the triggering condition does not occur before the person's second normal turn in the initiative sequence, then the precombat preparation expires and the person can act normally at that time.

A prepared person can take their readied action even if surprised during a surprise round. If surprised, however, they do not get to count the surprise round as their first "turn" if the triggering condition does not occur.

Anyway, that's my initial thought.

 

[Ziggy]

Thanks for the feedback Ki Ryn, I think I like your writeup more than mine

I especially like the limitation of no actions (apart from the trigger) in the first round if you have a Precombat Preparation. This is reasonable as you need some time to reconsider your priorities.

And trigging is always is problem with Ready Actions. I tend to be pretty strict with conditions, e.g. no trigging on things that the PCs are not aware of when the trigger is specified. I guess only playtesting will show if this is going to be a real problem.

Of course we are skirting pretty close to house rules here, I hope the moderators will let us keep the thread here and not die a lonely death in House Rules

.Ziggy

 

[AuraSeer]

But consider the case where the party and some monsters are on opposite sides of a door, and both are aware of each other (I've been in this situation several times in different campaigns). If you play by the book you tend to get very strange combats, where one PC (or monster) opens the door, and the rest lingers around for a while until their initiative comes up. If you could ready action (before combat) you could have one opening the door, with the rest ready to shoot or charge through.

I think what you want here is a Delay action. The PCs delay until the initiative count for their lowest member, and then they all go in whatever order they want.

Ferinstance:
The party rolls initiative. The fighter (at the door) gets a natural 20, but the wizard (in the middle of the group) gets a 4.
The fighter elects to Delay. If anyone else rolled higher than the wiz, they also Delay. Then, once the wizard is ready-- once the initiative count gets down to 4-- the fighter takes his delayed action and smashes the door down. The rest of the party takes their delayed actions and charges in after him.
This has two advantaged over Readying, the first being that it's not dependent on a specific triggering action. If you Ready an action for when the door opens, but then an enemy teleports into the hallway, you don't get to change your readied action. (The other advantage is that Delay does not restrict you to a partial action, as Ready does.)

 

[Ziggy]

I think what you want here is a Delay action. The PCs delay until the initiative count for their lowest member, and then they all go in whatever order they want.

All the icky stuff goes away when everybody has had their first action, it is what happens before that I don't like.

Delaying is a good tactic when you have the initiative, what you are basically doing is skipping the first round of combat, and then the system works perfectly

But if something happens during that first round of delays (e.g. the orcs on the other side break down the door), you have the same problem of everybody standing around (including those who delayed) waiting for something to happen.

Of course this problem is mainly caused by the way initiative and sequential actions are modeled in 3E, and I don't propose to change that. But ready actions (and AOO) are important aspects is limiting the sillyness of the system, and thus it is especially troublesome that you don't get them in the first round. Therefore we need something like "Precombat Preparation" to take away a bit of the sillyness.

Of course many parties will still choose to dealy because of the flexibility you get. And that is good, I'm all for options...

.Ziggy

 

[AuraSeer]

But if something happens during that first round of delays (e.g. the orcs on the other side break down the door), you have the same problem of everybody standing around (including those who delayed) waiting for something to happen.

You really don't though. When you Delay, you don't need to specify your new initiative count; you can go at any later time. Then, as soon as the door comes down(or whenever else you feel like acting), you say "I take my action now" proceed to do so. You can't use Delay to interrupt someone else's turn-- that's what Ready is for-- but it's very useful otherwise.

Here's something else I thought of. You start counting combat rounds as soon as someone takes a combat action right? Well, Readying is a combat action. If I'm a bodyguard to that evil wizard, and I ready an action to shoot the first attacking character, then combat rounds have started already. The PCs just haven't realized it yet, so they count as "new entries" to the combat, and that's why they're flat-footed.

(Did that explanation make sense or should I try again?)

 

[Ziggy]

You really don't though. When you Delay, you don't need to specify your new initiative count; you can go at any later time. Then, as soon as the door comes down(or whenever else you feel like acting), you say "I take my action now" proceed to do so. You can't use Delay to interrupt someone else's turn-- that's what Ready is for-- but it's very useful otherwise.

I see i didn't express myself very clearly. What i tried to say was using delay in this fashion is a way of "kick-starting" the combat system, and when it gets going it works pretty well.

But if something happens during that delay period, you will have some PCs (and monsters) that are still waiting for their initiative, while all the others (with delay) spring into a flurry of actions [e.g. charging through the door, counter-charging, killing each other etc.]. While this hppens the latecomers are silently standing there scratching their head, wondering what happened. I have seen the entire combat finished before the fighter (with low initiative, but ready for action and in front of the door) reacted.

Here's something else I thought of. You start counting combat rounds as soon as someone takes a combat action right? Well, Readying is a combat action. If I'm a bodyguard to that evil wizard, and I ready an action to shoot the first attacking character, then combat rounds have started already. The PCs just haven't realized it yet, so they count as "new entries" to the combat, and that's why they're flat-footed.

(Did that explanation make sense or should I try again?)

I think I understood it

The problem is that those bodyguards readied an action as soon as they went outside, and it's a bit cumbersome to run every second of the day in combat rounds

You could of course rule that the entire encounter is within combat, but not played out in combat rounds until an actual attack happens. But then you are proposing the same fix as I did, as this is makes ready actions available to all on the battlefield (not just the bodyguards).

I think I got that right ?

.Ziggy

 

[smetzger]

The DM is within his rights to give say a +4 situational modifier to initiative.