The fragility of heroic-tier characters

[Asmor]

I've seen quite a few people, including Jack99's very recent post and a blog post by the ChattyDM a while back extolling the virtues of paragon level characters, how tough they are, and how it feels like a whole new game from the heroic tier.

I'm in the perhaps unique position that my first major 4e campaign that really made it off the ground started at 11th level. I'd had a few aborted attempts at running things at lower levels which never worked out for various reasons, and didn't get much of a taste for the heroic tier.

My current campaign has gone back and started at level 1. They're currently level 3. And it's taken a lot of adjustment.

With paragon characters, for example, I'd gotten used to using arbitrary numbers of minions. I'd literally just grab a handful of minis and start plunking them down. I nearly had a TPK the first time I tried that with the heroic characters, and in general I've found minions actually work the way they're "supposed" to work against the low-level characters.

Anyone else have similar experiences?

 

[fanboy2000]

I have, so far, only played in the heroic tier. The PCs aren't made of paper, but yes, I do need to follow basic minion guidelines. 4 minions = 1 standard monster at the heroic tier is a pretty good assessment.

I've thrown lots of minions at a party before and keeping the 4 to 1 exchange rate in mind kept the PCs alive, but bruised. (Of course, had they made a greater effort to kill the minions first, they could have avoided a long and brutal battle, but hey, I just run the monsters and provide the world. )

At the heroic tier, the encounter formula works quite well for gauging beforehand the difficulty of an encounter. I can eyeball an encounter now without having to think about how I spend an xp budget. If you wanted encounter design help, I would suggest counting the number of standard monster (or equivalents) and making sure that it's about the same as the number of PCs. So, if you want 12 minions, that's 3 monsters of the minions' level. And, in a 5 PC party, you would have enough for 2 more creatures that that level.

 

[Rechan]

I've yet to see anyone die in a game, ever. Period. Lot of close calls, but no deaths yet. I do think that heroic level PCs really can stay in the game unless you're out of surges, because usually there's SOMEONE who can try to stabilize you.

As far as minions are concerned, I've not found them to be that dangerous at all except for two situations.

1) When minions surround someone who isn't a high AC defender.

2) Minions with ranged attacks.

Otherwise, they die fast (all wiped by end of round 1-2) and don't pose much of a threat.

 

[Crothian]

No deaths for us as well. The challenges have been fine in combat. I do not rate combat by the fatailities it causes but by the frustration and worries of the PCs. As long as they feel it was challenging and hard faught that's good enough for me.

 

[Rechan]

As long as they feel it was challenging and hard faught that's good enough for me.

Yeah.

And also it was challenging NOT because of poor dice, or frustrating in a bad way (too many conditions, not enough room to move, etc). You don't want it to be a challenge because it was poorly designed, you want it to be a challenge because it was designed well.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I have found 4E to work very well at both heroic and paragon levles (no experience with epic yet) Yes, with heroic you have to be a bit mroe careful, especialkly with minions above the character's level, butall you need is a blast at-will or some ability that auto dmages, and things get ugly really ffast

For the minions.

If the party lacks those and must use a standard action to kill each minion, they are alot tougher.

 

[fanboy2000]

I've killed three PCs. I chalk this up to DM error though.

 

[FireLance]

Bah, I remember when fighters had single-digit hit points at first level!

And a single orc was considered a challenge for a party of adventurers!

And if the party was outnumbered by orcs, the magic-user had better be able to cast sleep or everybody died!

Kids these days...

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I've never killed anybody by accident in 4E. I've killed a few people on purpose, and I've seen people die because they really screwed up. Mostly these are the same thing, as players do something that will result in them getting killed and I unhesitatingly pull the trigger.

That being said the first three levels or so PCs are a bit more fragile. HP are low, and PCs don't have as many resources to swing the momentum of a fight. A couple of bad rolls can have a bigger effect, and turning the tide back in favor of the PCs is much more difficult. By about levels 4-6, this stops being true.

 

[Asmor]

I actually haven't killed any of my PCs in the heroic game, yet.

I killed two PCs in the paragon-tier campaign I mentioned previously, though. Neither was planned, but I roll my dice in the open and don't pull punches. Both of the deaths were my fiancée. And both times she was killed by a mind flayer (not the same mind flayer). Fun stuff.