The fragility of heroic-tier characters
- Thread starter Asmor
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Iron Sky
Procedurally Generated
I've only had one player die in my campaign, and that was due to the players fighting an elite + 3 regular enemies + 1d4 minions spawning every round AND a magical portal skill challenge (trying to close the portal before another elite demon spawned).
The druid charged into the fray, his crazy amount of movement putting in the fight alone 2 turns before the rest of the front-liners could get there. Then there was so much going on, they didn't have time to get to him and he failed 3 stabilization checks in a row.
I've thrown 40 minions + 2 regulars + 1 elite at the party while they were at 3rd level and they managed to take it all down, even with the swordmage spending all his rounds in a magic duel(opposed arcana checks) trying to drop the magic shield the enemy elite was holding in place until the demon portal could open.
In my experience, especially now that they have a pacifist cleric, heroic characters are anything but fragile.
The druid charged into the fray, his crazy amount of movement putting in the fight alone 2 turns before the rest of the front-liners could get there. Then there was so much going on, they didn't have time to get to him and he failed 3 stabilization checks in a row.
I've thrown 40 minions + 2 regulars + 1 elite at the party while they were at 3rd level and they managed to take it all down, even with the swordmage spending all his rounds in a magic duel(opposed arcana checks) trying to drop the magic shield the enemy elite was holding in place until the demon portal could open.
In my experience, especially now that they have a pacifist cleric, heroic characters are anything but fragile.
Did she make you sleep on the couch with each death?
Think they'd learn their lesson about mind flayers and close combat, eh?And both times she was killed by a mind flayer (not the same mind flayer). Fun stuff.
Dice4Hire
First Post
Well, to discuss death, my party (only three of us, small group) had two deaths. One was in the Trollhaunt warrens (P1) when we just plain bit off mroe than we could chew and the monsters just plain stomped us. We ran, Dude one carrying an unconscious dude two but dude onedid not make the jump over the stream, which put two of us unconscious, so the third guy jsut ended up dying in a hail of ranged effects.
The second was in P2, I think, when we were going into a fvfortress, and had a nasty collection of auras. No spnding surges, immobilize and something else, so when two party members went down (and failed 6 death saves in seven tries) we assumed the last guy was dead too, and started over with new characters.
So a bit atypical party, but not bad overall.
The second was in P2, I think, when we were going into a fvfortress, and had a nasty collection of auras. No spnding surges, immobilize and something else, so when two party members went down (and failed 6 death saves in seven tries) we assumed the last guy was dead too, and started over with new characters.
So a bit atypical party, but not bad overall.
aka_taliesin
First Post
I think it mostly depends on your party, though I have no experience on paragon level play.
Our party of three is mawing down through encounters of their level since 1st level (we're 9th now). The DMG encounter building guideline had to be shift up by 2 level in our case. Our party consists of:
Orc Fighter hallberd wielder (STR + CON), multiclass cleric
Human Tactical warlord, multiclass paladin
Dwarf Cleric (WIS only)
Our fighter has selected mostly close burst powers and boost up the basic attack / opportunity attacks. He's always taking the spot light, forcing our opponent to break their teeth on him. The warlord never attacks himself unless leading the attack or similar power, while the cleric make sure everybody is fit, especially that the fighter can stay up (the guy seems to need a healing power of some sort every turn, luckily all party memeber got some).
It seems the party defeats foes by sheer survability (and the fighter's hallberd ;-) ). At the end of the day, we are usually spent though, especially the fighter, but with all the extra attacks the poor guy is making, it's normal. We are also always very careful with ranged foes (artillery, lurker) that are difficult to get but so far we managed to out-tactic them into coming to the grassmawer errrr fighter.
Our party of three is mawing down through encounters of their level since 1st level (we're 9th now). The DMG encounter building guideline had to be shift up by 2 level in our case. Our party consists of:
Orc Fighter hallberd wielder (STR + CON), multiclass cleric
Human Tactical warlord, multiclass paladin
Dwarf Cleric (WIS only)
Our fighter has selected mostly close burst powers and boost up the basic attack / opportunity attacks. He's always taking the spot light, forcing our opponent to break their teeth on him. The warlord never attacks himself unless leading the attack or similar power, while the cleric make sure everybody is fit, especially that the fighter can stay up (the guy seems to need a healing power of some sort every turn, luckily all party memeber got some).
It seems the party defeats foes by sheer survability (and the fighter's hallberd ;-) ). At the end of the day, we are usually spent though, especially the fighter, but with all the extra attacks the poor guy is making, it's normal. We are also always very careful with ranged foes (artillery, lurker) that are difficult to get but so far we managed to out-tactic them into coming to the grassmawer errrr fighter.
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Jan van Leyden
Adventurer
Both of our deaths were my wife.
The first (1st level fighter) was due to a combination of bad planning and running in 3e mode. Her character let tried another way of access to the house the party was to enter, so she drew most of the fire to herself. When she went down, the party thought they'd have lots of time to save her.
The second (3rd level rogue) was due to party stubbornness. While they had a good measure on the possible damage output of the enemies, they stayed in the fight with single-digit HP. One rogue down and the battle line broke.
LostSoul
Adventurer
I've been running the same campaign for over a year now, and the PCs are just about to hit 6th level.
That's because there was a TPK once, we reset to 1st level, and then another TPK. (After which we reset to 3rd level, since I am a pushover.) The level of both of those encounters was pretty hard - a 14th-level elite vs. 8th level PCs, and a 7th or 8th level encounter vs. 3rd level PCs.
However, as a DM, I bear no responsiblity for those TPKs! (At least I like to think so.
) In the first case, we had moved from running WotC modules to a sandbox, and while I told them that they might encounter creatures that were out of their ability to handle, they didn't really know what that meant. (It means that you need to do a lot of information gathering, and then prep for the combat.) The second TPK was when the PCs decided to face an encounter where they knew exactly what they were facing.
Both TPKs have enriched my game, so I'm happy.
That's because there was a TPK once, we reset to 1st level, and then another TPK. (After which we reset to 3rd level, since I am a pushover.) The level of both of those encounters was pretty hard - a 14th-level elite vs. 8th level PCs, and a 7th or 8th level encounter vs. 3rd level PCs.
However, as a DM, I bear no responsiblity for those TPKs! (At least I like to think so.
) In the first case, we had moved from running WotC modules to a sandbox, and while I told them that they might encounter creatures that were out of their ability to handle, they didn't really know what that meant. (It means that you need to do a lot of information gathering, and then prep for the combat.) The second TPK was when the PCs decided to face an encounter where they knew exactly what they were facing.Both TPKs have enriched my game, so I'm happy.
Jack99
Adventurer
While 4e characters (even at heroic tier) are quite durable, it is certainly possible to kill them. I killed 7 characters at the heroic tier, and so far I have killed them 4 times at paragon (Warlock killed by green dragon, fighter killed by troll-king, cleric killed by aspect of Tiamat and finally cleric killed by demilich). Wow, before typing this, I hadn't realized that they have only been killed by important BBEG's - that's pretty neat.
My rules for dying are somewhat rougher than the real rules, and they definitely do not take things lightly.
Anyway. IMO and IME there is a clear difference - They are harder to kill at paragon, without they ever being weak at heroic.
My rules for dying are somewhat rougher than the real rules, and they definitely do not take things lightly.
Anyway. IMO and IME there is a clear difference - They are harder to kill at paragon, without they ever being weak at heroic.
A PC got killed in my game last week. 6 level 2 PCs went into the ankheg lair, expecting 1 ankheg. There were 3 ankhegs (level 3 elites I gave 1/2 hp, 50 each AIR). The ankhegs did well on init and blasted away with acid blast, taking down most of the PCs' front line. Then they were grabbing and scuttling, doing continuous acid damage, spending APs, blasting again when bloodied, and just generally chewing up the PCs. When the Leader (Bard) ran out of heals and the ankhegs were scuttlin off with 2 dying PCs in their jaws, it looked grim. 1 PC managed to get a healing potion to a dying PC and recharge her, the other PC died. The ankheg was scurrying off with the corpse but the PCs chased after it, eventually it dropped the body to escape. They're going to try to get hiim raised on Sunday.
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