The fragility of heroic-tier characters
- Thread starter Asmor
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Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Hey, you guys killing your girlfriends or wifes character? Do you think you might be overcompensation to avoid any accusations of favoritism? 
Holy Bovine
First Post
Hey, you guys killing your girlfriends or wifes character? Do you think you might be overcompensation to avoid any accusations of favoritism?
As a DM with his wife as a player I have been very sensitive to this kind of thing and go out of my way to try and not show favourtism towards her character. Of course during a recent audit of everyone's PC I have noticed that I may be going to far the other way and have deliberately short-changed her on magical items. The party averages 4.5 magic items each - she has 2 (including one potion)!
Storminator
First Post
We've lost 3 PCs so far and we're at 5th level. I'm trying to figure out how we save our Avenger next session. He's on the last stage of Filth Fever, so he has 1 hp, no surges, and can't be healed.
We've lost the half-elf warlock, the eladrin swordmage and the eladrin wizard. My dwarven cleric of Kord points out that all these characters had high INT and pointy ears - obviously those aren't survival traits! Put more points in CON ya hippies!
We've been on the brink of TPKs probably 6 times already. Two of our player deaths were when we had 2 PCs down and at 2 failed death saves and only one PC to make a heal check.
Our party has always had 2 leaders but still not enough healing.
PS
We've lost the half-elf warlock, the eladrin swordmage and the eladrin wizard. My dwarven cleric of Kord points out that all these characters had high INT and pointy ears - obviously those aren't survival traits! Put more points in CON ya hippies!
We've been on the brink of TPKs probably 6 times already. Two of our player deaths were when we had 2 PCs down and at 2 failed death saves and only one PC to make a heal check.
Our party has always had 2 leaders but still not enough healing.
PS
We lost a dwarf fighter on our second 4e encounter, when we discovered that more hit points than in previous editions and lots of special abilities didn't mean you could charge into the middle of a group of goblins with impunity.
We lost our wizard at 4th level, when we followed a group we were beating into a different area and triggered a second encounter, and then fled and triggered a third.
We had a near TPK in our last session (4 out of 5 killed) when we managed to lead a tribe of troglodytes to a rope bridge we were escaping over, and then tried to cross it with one character holding them back. He went down, and they chopped the bridge down. It was only the Elf Ranger who was fast enough to get across. I (as the Ranger) didn't even get to loot their bodies
We lost our wizard at 4th level, when we followed a group we were beating into a different area and triggered a second encounter, and then fled and triggered a third.
We had a near TPK in our last session (4 out of 5 killed) when we managed to lead a tribe of troglodytes to a rope bridge we were escaping over, and then tried to cross it with one character holding them back. He went down, and they chopped the bridge down. It was only the Elf Ranger who was fast enough to get across. I (as the Ranger) didn't even get to loot their bodies
OchreJelly
First Post
It's been interesting comparing heroic to paragon. Heroic had the only player death in H1 (not at Irontooth either). Paragon they feel super powered so far. We are running P1, but I have observed something interesting. While they tend to use a lot of status effects they seem to be more susceptible to them than heroic.
There have been way more player lock-downs with dazes, slows, restrains etc. almost to a frustrating extent for them. When I think of the key differences between heroic and paragon I immediately think of the status effects.
There have been way more player lock-downs with dazes, slows, restrains etc. almost to a frustrating extent for them. When I think of the key differences between heroic and paragon I immediately think of the status effects.
In our 4E test week no pc died, either. However, we had three leaders (warlord, cleric, bard), so that didn't surprise me.
We played through the first part of the Ashen Crown adventure module (intended for a level 2 party) with a party of seven 1st level pcs so I typically only added a single monster to encounters.
The 'boss' encounter in Ashurta's tomb was a close thing, though (again, no big surprise with an encounter level of n+3). Only great party teamplay prevented the warlord to die by failing her third death saving throw at one point. After the fight every healing resource had been spent, and everyone still standing was bloodied. It was also a good thing they had an extended rest before the fight.
What really intriguied me, was that almost every encounter _seemed_ close. I think someone went down in every fight at some point. Ambush situations were definitely very dangerous, as was misinterpreting who's the real threat in an encounter.
It never felt as if it was just a 1st level party - which I liked a lot. On a tactical level those fights were easily on par with our 3E 13th level party.
I wouldn't exactly call 1st level 4E chars fragile. Sure, they drop easily, but they certainly don't die easily.
We played through the first part of the Ashen Crown adventure module (intended for a level 2 party) with a party of seven 1st level pcs so I typically only added a single monster to encounters.
The 'boss' encounter in Ashurta's tomb was a close thing, though (again, no big surprise with an encounter level of n+3). Only great party teamplay prevented the warlord to die by failing her third death saving throw at one point. After the fight every healing resource had been spent, and everyone still standing was bloodied. It was also a good thing they had an extended rest before the fight.
What really intriguied me, was that almost every encounter _seemed_ close. I think someone went down in every fight at some point. Ambush situations were definitely very dangerous, as was misinterpreting who's the real threat in an encounter.
It never felt as if it was just a 1st level party - which I liked a lot. On a tactical level those fights were easily on par with our 3E 13th level party.
I wouldn't exactly call 1st level 4E chars fragile. Sure, they drop easily, but they certainly don't die easily.
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Holy cow guys. Are we even playing the same dang game? My group just finished up Pyramid of Shadows this Wednesday and here is an email the DM sent out after wards:
[sblock]
Followed by:
[sblock]
Note only the smart wizard actually lived. The other three in the longest standing group were picked off at one point or another.
How is my group average over 1 death ever 2 sessions and some of you guys STILL haven't seen a death?
Of course Pyramid of Shadows resolution was the first time we fought the big bad of the module and managed to come through without any deaths. Although my character was unconscious with 104 points of damage on him ... and death waiting at 105. again!
[sblock]
[/sblock]My DM said:
Followed by:
[sblock]
[/sblock]My DM said:
Note only the smart wizard actually lived. The other three in the longest standing group were picked off at one point or another.
How is my group average over 1 death ever 2 sessions and some of you guys STILL haven't seen a death?
Of course Pyramid of Shadows resolution was the first time we fought the big bad of the module and managed to come through without any deaths. Although my character was unconscious with 104 points of damage on him ... and death waiting at 105.
again!In my first 4E game, I actually wiped the party once. But alot of that was due to bad rolls and stubborn players--they decided to keep fighting the killer kobolds even after they were smitten by six crits within eight attacks, then proceeded to go after the big bad without taking an extended rest.
That campaign ended in the early paragon tier, at 13th level. Me and the players arrived at a consensus that paragon tier as written just isn't for us. Combats dragged on forever because both sides have so many hit points and the players have so many options. Immediate interrupts in particular really pad out the time it takes to play through a single round of combat. They rarely had to take an extended rest because the challenges (by the DMG guidelines) just didn't seem as challening as at heroic. At our last adventure, combats were taking an average of two hours to complete, as opposed to approximately thirty minutes at heroic tier. Fortunately, PHB2 was still fresh at the time, so the players were interested in starting new characters anyway.
In the current 4E game, the party just hit 4th level and we've had two character deaths. One was a bad crit against someone who is stubborn about spending healing surges. One of them was our striker, who loves to charge into the midst of melee and pretend that he's a defender.
That campaign ended in the early paragon tier, at 13th level. Me and the players arrived at a consensus that paragon tier as written just isn't for us. Combats dragged on forever because both sides have so many hit points and the players have so many options. Immediate interrupts in particular really pad out the time it takes to play through a single round of combat. They rarely had to take an extended rest because the challenges (by the DMG guidelines) just didn't seem as challening as at heroic. At our last adventure, combats were taking an average of two hours to complete, as opposed to approximately thirty minutes at heroic tier. Fortunately, PHB2 was still fresh at the time, so the players were interested in starting new characters anyway.
In the current 4E game, the party just hit 4th level and we've had two character deaths. One was a bad crit against someone who is stubborn about spending healing surges. One of them was our striker, who loves to charge into the midst of melee and pretend that he's a defender.
Caliber's DM:
"Well the Wednesday night group completed the 3 H modules in 59 gaming sessions..."
Is that normal for these modules? 15-18+ sessions per module? How long are your sessions?
I've been running a lot of typical modules recently, and they've all gone exactly 4 sessions, f 4-5 hours each. I didn't think H1-3 were that different? Also, aren't you meant to level up 3 times each H module? At 3 sessions to level x 3 levels, that'd be 9 sessions per adventure.
"Well the Wednesday night group completed the 3 H modules in 59 gaming sessions..."
Is that normal for these modules? 15-18+ sessions per module? How long are your sessions?
I've been running a lot of typical modules recently, and they've all gone exactly 4 sessions, f 4-5 hours each. I didn't think H1-3 were that different? Also, aren't you meant to level up 3 times each H module? At 3 sessions to level x 3 levels, that'd be 9 sessions per adventure.
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