The glory of OD&D

[Ghendar]

I have found that this can be easier then people think. But it requires them to trust the DM and the other people. A gaming group is a very important piece of the gaming puzzle and gaming with friends is the key.

I game with folks that I consider friends. Prior to joining the group I didn't know any of them. However, if I suggested to these guys that we scrap our 3.5 campaign and play 1st ED, they wouldn't do it. The attitude is there that the previous edition (whatever it is) is not as good as 3.5, therefore it isn't worth playing. But anyway, that's my particular hurdle and it's one that's just to high to jump right now. Maybe with a different group, it could work.

 

[Sammael]

In any event, it's just a game and frankly anyone who would have a problem with me as a DM, making up ad hoc rules doesn't have a place at my table. I'm always amazed by how many people (I'm generalizing, not targeted at anyone specifically) get upset about these things. It's just a game people. There's no money at stake. Why not just relax and have a good time and not worry about every single last stinking rule.

Caveat: I am not picking on you. I haven't gamed with you and have no idea about your particular DMing style. This is a series of generalized observations. So, why not just relax?

Because DMs can and do play favorites. Balanced rules help with this.
Because DMs can and do make inconsistent rules decisions that can greatly affect the party in a negative way. Codified rules help with this.
Because DMs can and do have mood swings. Knowing what your character can do and not having to rely on an ad-hoc DM decision that depends on whether his day at work was nice or not can help alleviate this.
Because DMs can and do forget. And they shouldn't have to be the only ones to know the rules.
Because some players playing in a non-codified system expect that their characters can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. And many DMs don't know how to deal with this without resorting to heavy-handedness and/or arguments.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Perhaps "limited" is the wrong term. It is not limited in what you can do, it is limited in what is defined by the rules. Since everything that is not defined by the rules has to be decided on by a referee, then the referee has to spend far too much time for my taste making rule decisions, and not enough time (again, for my taste) working on the actual plot. Of course, OD&D wasn't originally envisioned to be played with a plot: it was (from what I know about it) a slightly expanded dungeon-crawling wargame.

I do not doubt that you can have a rich role-playing experience with OD&D. I do, however, doubt that the vast majority of DMs could pull that off. If Crothian can, hats off to him. Note that you mentioned games that have been running for 30+ years. Undoubtedly, referees of those games have long ago made critical rules decisions and house-ruled most (if not all) rules issues that could pop up in a game. Thus, they are now free to focus on creating interesting stories and making up kick-ass dungeons. A person new to the system has a bumpy road ahead when he has to work out all those issues for himself.

As stated earlier, I have no interest in running or playing in games that rely on ad-hoc decisions. I do not believe in the mythical "trust" between the GM and players, since I am a GM myself and I can be right-down rat-bastardly if I feel like it. Additionally, I spend at least 12 hours prepping for each of my 4-6 hour sessions, and most of that time is spent on the plot and NPCs. Using an ad-hoc system would mean that some of that time would have to be spent on house-ruling, which would detract from the rest of the experience. All this has nothing to do with my experience with role-playing systems (as implied by Ghendar), since I have experience with AD&D 1st and 2nd edition, RIFTS, Warhammer FRP, Vampire, and so on. Codified rules are what works for me. My initial concern was about Crothian's players, but if they're fine with it, more power to him.

Unless the dm knows every rule right off the top of his head, I prefer ad hoc calls. Time spent looking up rules and perhaps arguing over the letter of the rule vs the intent, is time not spent gaming. I prefer the dm to spit something out and get on with it. If it screws my pc, I'll grumble about it, maybe bitch in an email later, but move on. I can't count how many 3e games I've been in where more time was spent looking up rules or arguing about them than actual time spent playing. This experience has been the same in multiple groups with dozens of players and dms. That never happens in an AD&D game. If someone else's experience has been different, I am happy for you, but mine hasn't, that's why I now play C&C/AD&D or a stripped down 3e.

Ad hoc calls kick ass, and without them, why bother to dm? If it's the creative outlook your looking for, write a novel.

 

[Crothian]

I game with folks that I consider friends. Prior to joining the group I didn't know any of them. However, if I suggested to these guys that we scrap our 3.5 campaign and play 1st ED, they wouldn't do it. The attitude is there that the previous edition (whatever it is) is not as good as 3.5, therefore it isn't worth playing.

I work to get them to trust me to run a fun game no matter the system. I've had success with many different games from Vampire to Rifts to D&D and Star Wars and Buffy and Paranoia. And they know if they are not having fun we can talk about and their opinions do count.

 

[Ghendar]

Caveat: I am not picking on you. I haven't gamed with you and have no idea about your particular DMing style. This is a series of generalized observations. So, why not just relax?

And neither was I picking on you Sammael. Just having a nice discussion here. Perhaps my use of the term "stinking rule" was a little incendiary.

To each his own when it comes to DM style.

btw, EVERY ad hoc rule or house rule must be documented for consistency. Otherwise, chaos can result.

 

[Blustar]

It is a mistaken belief that OD&D is a very limited sytem, it is the the least limited system to play there is. You can do anything within its rules. You have complete freedom to play the game anyway that you and your players want to. While I only came to the system a little over a year ago myself, I have become aware of a number of campaigns that are in the 30-32 year range and counting. The guy that introduced it to me has a campaign that has been running since early in 1974 and has maintained an average of 10-12 consistent players over that time frame. He currently has 16 players ranging in age from 6 to 75. The fact that it is not being made, supported or played by the majority is irrelevant to him and to me as well. My own campaign has 12 adults and 9 children. It is an enormous amount of fun, easy to learn and easy to referee (to use the original term for a DM). It lends itself easily to larger groups of players and easily accomodates a simple dungeon, a mega-dungeon or a complex fully designed world, whatever you want to play in.

You can do anything in any RPG within and with-out the rules. Enough of the one true game BS. The one true game is the game I run and all other games are inferior right? Arrogance?
All RPG's I know come with the disclaimer, "these are your rules now, do what you will with them", don't they? I can't help it if people are too cowardly to play the game they want to and need to follow every dang rule. What if you don't want to use Vancian magic in OD&D? Is there an alternate spell casting system? I'm sure you have the "Freedom" to make one up but you can do that with any frikkin edition of any RPG game ever made. All RPG's offer you the "freedom" to do whatever you want with them.

We play 3.5 with just the core books and we never have the problems that the Grogs attribute to 3.5. Too many feats? Nope. Players playing to the system? Not my games. Can't roleplay because they have skills and feats? Whatever.

The funny thing is I love 1edAD&D as much as 3.5 and I do like it's quirkiness and cool rules. Why all the hate for a system that gives you the stability to play tactical battles plus add a working skill system. (which the older systems never had one unless you made them up)

I do have PDF's of OD&D and all it's supplements and I think the game would be cool to run but it's not the one true game any more than I'm the one true guitar player. If it's the one true game why is GAry playing LA then . (Heresy) It just offers you a different style of play.

The one true game, if I were honest, would be BRP, which is used in CoC, Stormbringer, RQ, etc...After reading many, many, rulesets I think BRP is simple and a very powerful game engine. Still my favorite is D&D and all its incarnations. (BD&D,OAD&D, Hackmaster, 3.5) The rules taste different but offer something unique which is what I admire. Unique and different but similar. Not the same damn thing all the time. ( even I get tired of fried chicken eventually) (Bruce Lee tried the "one true" diet, didn't seem to work out too well)

cheers,

Blue


ps- THe only one true game would be one without rules at all to get in the way of your imagination. MAke everything up!

 

[Sammael]

btw, EVERY ad hoc rule or house rule must be documented for consistency. Otherwise, chaos can result.

Agreed 100%. But many ad-hoc DMs I've seen don't bother to do this.

 

[Ghendar]

All RPG's I know come with the disclaimer, "these are your rules now, do what you will with them", don't they? .

I know the original AD&D did. Gygax always encouraged this idea. Sadly, some don't get it.

 

[Kishin]

I know the original AD&D did. Gygax always encouraged this idea. Sadly, some don't get it.

QFT. It really boggles me when people don't seem to realize this, as it pops up almost anywhere in any given RPG system (The most recent recollection of it among my own collection was at the beginning of the Game of Thrones RPG book).

Growing up, my brother, who is significantly older than I and the source of my involvement in gaming, always used to explain it like this: He'd hold up a rule book and say: "See this? What is it?" and then follow it with "Its a big book of suggestions."

OD&D no more facilitates this any other system, as has been said. You're always free to ignore and change things to your liking. Also, saying gaming as a hobby hasn't improved mechanically since the days of OD&D is kinda like saying that rock music hasn't developed and progressed since the Beatles. (Which, as a musician, is one of my biggest pet peeves. Four British guys with bad haircuts, despite their unquestionable degree of talent, do not manage to constitute the entire length and breadth of the genre).

Really, its another case of wrongbadfun, and ultimately its to individuals to play what they most enjoy. OD&D converts just seem to be acquiring a reputation for proselytizing the system as the epitome of the D&D experience.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Its strange how some seemed to get defensive about their games after reading about Crothian decision.

Anyway good luck Crothian! Hope you have a blast with it. Never played OD&D, just BCEM and 1e but sounds like you know what you want out of a game. Enjoy.

Diaglo has converted another...who will be next?