The Goblin - Pathfinder 2's Newest Ancestry!

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Today's Pathfinder 2nd Edition update is all about the Goblin! Paizo introduces the first (and the newest) of the game's Ancestries. As always, this information will be added to the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Compiled Info Page!

• Goblins! Last night Paizo revealed the first of the Ancestries - the Goblin!
  • Boosts to Dexterity and Charisma plus one other ability score of your choice
  • Flaw to Wisdom
  • 6 hit points
  • Speed 25'
  • Common and Goblin starting language
  • Darvision (see in the dark as though it were daylight)
  • Sample Ancestry feats --
    • Burn It -- bonus damage on fire spells or alchemical items, and increases persistent fire damage by 1 points.
    • Junk Tinkerer -- craft ordinary, poor quality items out of junk.
    • Razor Teeth -- 1d6 piercing damage.
    • Very Sneaky -- move additional 5' when taking the sneak action (normally half speed) and possibly render target flat-footed.
• Jason Bulmahn on including Goblins -- "Concerning goblins and how they fit in Golarion: Times change and so do people's opinions. Goblins as PCs have been a part of our world since the first "We Be Goblins" adventure. Many of the comments here echo those from back during the launch of 3.0 when Half-Orcs returned to the game as a player choice. There was a lot of conflict at first, but the tone of them shifted over time. We always knew this would be a bit controversial and that there were some who would loudly proclaim "not at my table" and I get that. It's your table and your game after all. We are moving forward, trying to allow players to explore these characters, their culture, and their viewpoint. We are hoping to give you plenty of reasons, both mechanically and story-driven, to allow goblins in your game."
• Mark Seifter on that flexible ability boost -- "It's one of ways you get to really customize your ancestry to fit your character concept, melding the story and life of your character to the mechanics. Plus you can play the class you want without worrying about as much of an uphill battle with ability scores if you don't match the bonuses from the race with the class you had it mind. Incidentally, it provides a really nice design space to much more easily create and handle subraces that have different ability modifiers... "
• Mark Seifter confirms that repairing an item is a untrained use but building is trained only.
• Seifter on failed saves vs. dominate -- "the wording is subtly different now. Anyway, because it implies what you've said here, I wouldn't say "if you critically fail your save against dominate, you are completely under the spellcaster's control". There is still some possibility to resist a particularly abhorrent new order on a critical failure, but you're going to have to fulfill that first command no matter what."
• Community News --
  • Frank "Mottokrosh" Reding has put up the results of his survey regarding the future of his Pathfinder character sheet app.

 

[Charlaquin]

"There is no reason a goblin should have a charisma bonus," they said of a race popular enough to be the companies mascot, be included in four adventures, and make it into the next edition of the rules as a core race.

No one would bat an eye if there was a race called "manic pixie" that got a charisma bonus. Goblins are evil manic pixies.

The trouble is, their quirkiness is appreciated as charming by real-life humans playing the game. In-universe, it’s presented as vexing. There’s also a touch of schadenfreude to our real-life enjoyment of goblin antics. It’s funny to us to see fictional characters dealing with the headache of goblins’ shenanigans, but we wouldn’t find it nearly so enjoyable to be in the protagonists’ shoes. Their out of character charisma is a direct result of how socially graceless they are portrayed as in the fiction. A suave, smooth-talking Goblin wouldn’t have the same appeal as a nightmarishly vulgar one.

Not to say that there’s no good reason for Goblins to have a charisma bonus. But “they’re popular in real life” is not one of them, given that their popularity is due in no small part to their lack of Charisma.

 

[Shasarak]

[*]Mark Seifter on that flexible ability boost -- "It's one of ways you get to really customize your ancestry to fit your character concept, melding the story and life of your character to the mechanics. Plus you can play the class you want without worrying about as much of an uphill battle with ability scores if you don't match the bonuses from the race with the class you had it mind. Incidentally, it provides a really nice design space to much more easily create and handle subraces that have different ability modifiers... "

So is Mark saying that Pathfinder has both Ancestry and Sub-Races? Or was that just a slip of the keyboard so to speak.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I don’t get why it’s a boost to Charisma and a flaw to Wisdom. If anything, I would expect the opposite. Goblins aren’t known for being smooth talkers as far as I’m aware, and on the contrary tend to be quite socially graceless. On the other hand, they’re nothing if not wily.

Charisma is a very broad stat. Ever since someone decided that it should have something to do with natural magical ability, it's been spreading to include anything else that isn't already covered by one of the other five. In this case, I can see Charisma acting as 'passion' or 'enthusiasm' rather than persuasiveness. Goblins may not know what they're doing, but they really want it.

Besides, every race has to have two good stats and one bad stat. Charisma makes as much sense as anything else. The only weird thing is that they're transitioning from a penalty in PF1 to a bonus in PF2, which will probably require them to actually re-define what the stat means. (Again.)

 

[Sunseeker]

Yeah, Paizo has a weird hard-on for goblins. I mean, their goblins ARE terrifyingly adorable, but I don't see the appeal.

Also, Charisma bonus? Are they sure these aren't the goblins Paizo is looking for?

 

[Charlaquin]

Yeah, Paizo has a weird hard-on for goblins. I mean, their goblins ARE terrifyingly adorable, but I don't see the appeal.

Also, Charisma bonus? Are they sure these aren't the goblins Paizo is looking for?

I mean, apart from their appearance, Paizo Goblins are not far off from Froud goblins. But Jareth is canonically not a goblin. They named him their king because they have an inherent desire to be followers and he’s a charismatic leader, and he accepted because he finds them amusing.

 

[Charlaquin]

Charisma is a very broad stat. Ever since someone decided that it should have something to do with natural magical ability, it's been spreading to include anything else that isn't already covered by one of the other five. In this case, I can see Charisma acting as 'passion' or 'enthusiasm' rather than persuasiveness. Goblins may not know what they're doing, but they really want it.

Besides, every race has to have two good stats and one bad stat. Charisma makes as much sense as anything else. The only weird thing is that they're transitioning from a penalty in PF1 to a bonus in PF2, which will probably require them to actually re-define what the stat means. (Again.)

Yeah, I long ago accepted that the Abilities are meaningless and have been since 3rd Edition, but I’m a bit surprised Paizo is embracing their arbitrary nature. I’d expect them to do a bit better job pretending they represent specific attributes and qualities of the character.

Honestly, I think the best argument I’ve seen so far in favor of the charisma bonus is that, like you said, they needed a second stat to give +2 to besides Dex, and we’d have been having this conversation no matter what they chose. They’re not wise, they’re not smart, they’re not strong, they’re not tough, and while I certainly wouldn’t describe them as charismatic, you can kind of handwave it away by saying their antics are strangely endearing, and the Goblins that join adventuring parties have to learn to play up that charm or they won’t be accepted by their companions. Plus charisma is a good stat for a lot of the classes that are a good thematic fit for goblins.

Side note, this seems to be part of a trend, which you also see in 5e, where evil races get +Charisma, for seemingly little other reason than because it’s a good stat for shady classes like Rogues and Warlocks.

 

[Sunseeker]

I mean, apart from their appearance, Paizo Goblins are not far off from Froud goblins. But Jareth is canonically not a goblin. They named him their king because they have an inherent desire to be followers and he’s a charismatic leader, and he accepted because he finds them amusing.

Yeah I get that.

But I mean, I don't get the charisma bump. Charisma usually refers to a creature either being physically attractive (by humanoid social norms) or being a particularly cunning linguist. As far as I am aware of Paizo Goblin lore, they are neither particularly adorable nor skilled with language.

 

[Rils]

Charisma usually refers to a creature either being physically attractive (by humanoid social norms) or being a particularly cunning linguist.

Charisma is more correctly equated to "force of personality", a measure of your sense of self. The ability to "fill the room" simply by being there. That might be physical attractiveness, cunning wit, or an overbearing presence. It's the same reason D&D tieflings get Cha boosts - they know who they are and what they want and how to get it, regardless of what it does to other people. That's why classes like warlocks use it for their spell-casting stat - you better be danged full of self-confidence to make those pacts and wield those powers, knowing the risks.

We all know people we'd call charismatic because tons of people like them - why? It is their strong sense of self-confidence that pulls us in. But many unlikable people can equally be called charismatic - I know it's only page 2, but I'll go ahead and invoke Godwin's law for an example. Why? Because as humans, we are drawn to people with a strong force of personality: that is, charisma.

When viewed less as an arbitrary measure of attractiveness, and more as measure of your self-confidence and self-awareness, Cha bumps to Golarion goblins make a bit more sense.

... still doesn't mean I'll allow them at my table...

 

[Charlaquin]

cunning linguist

I see what you did there

 

[Charlaquin]

For the record though, I’m pretty sure Charisma in D&D and PF means the same thing it means in English, which doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with either physical attractiveness or linguistic skill, though both can be components. Ultimately it just means force of personality. Social magnetism. Likableness.