The Goblin - Pathfinder 2's Newest Ancestry!

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Today's Pathfinder 2nd Edition update is all about the Goblin! Paizo introduces the first (and the newest) of the game's Ancestries. As always, this information will be added to the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Compiled Info Page!

• Goblins! Last night Paizo revealed the first of the Ancestries - the Goblin!
  • Boosts to Dexterity and Charisma plus one other ability score of your choice
  • Flaw to Wisdom
  • 6 hit points
  • Speed 25'
  • Common and Goblin starting language
  • Darvision (see in the dark as though it were daylight)
  • Sample Ancestry feats --
    • Burn It -- bonus damage on fire spells or alchemical items, and increases persistent fire damage by 1 points.
    • Junk Tinkerer -- craft ordinary, poor quality items out of junk.
    • Razor Teeth -- 1d6 piercing damage.
    • Very Sneaky -- move additional 5' when taking the sneak action (normally half speed) and possibly render target flat-footed.
• Jason Bulmahn on including Goblins -- "Concerning goblins and how they fit in Golarion: Times change and so do people's opinions. Goblins as PCs have been a part of our world since the first "We Be Goblins" adventure. Many of the comments here echo those from back during the launch of 3.0 when Half-Orcs returned to the game as a player choice. There was a lot of conflict at first, but the tone of them shifted over time. We always knew this would be a bit controversial and that there were some who would loudly proclaim "not at my table" and I get that. It's your table and your game after all. We are moving forward, trying to allow players to explore these characters, their culture, and their viewpoint. We are hoping to give you plenty of reasons, both mechanically and story-driven, to allow goblins in your game."
• Mark Seifter on that flexible ability boost -- "It's one of ways you get to really customize your ancestry to fit your character concept, melding the story and life of your character to the mechanics. Plus you can play the class you want without worrying about as much of an uphill battle with ability scores if you don't match the bonuses from the race with the class you had it mind. Incidentally, it provides a really nice design space to much more easily create and handle subraces that have different ability modifiers... "
• Mark Seifter confirms that repairing an item is a untrained use but building is trained only.
• Seifter on failed saves vs. dominate -- "the wording is subtly different now. Anyway, because it implies what you've said here, I wouldn't say "if you critically fail your save against dominate, you are completely under the spellcaster's control". There is still some possibility to resist a particularly abhorrent new order on a critical failure, but you're going to have to fulfill that first command no matter what."
• Community News --
  • Frank "Mottokrosh" Reding has put up the results of his survey regarding the future of his Pathfinder character sheet app.

 

[Sunseeker]

Charisma is more correctly equated to "force of personality", a measure of your sense of self. The ability to "fill the room" simply by being there. That might be physical attractiveness, cunning wit, or an overbearing presence. It's the same reason D&D tieflings get Cha boosts - they know who they are and what they want and how to get it, regardless of what it does to other people. That's why classes like warlocks use it for their spell-casting stat - you better be danged full of self-confidence to make those pacts and wield those powers, knowing the risks.

We all know people we'd call charismatic because tons of people like them - why? It is their strong sense of self-confidence that pulls us in. But many unlikable people can equally be called charismatic - I know it's only page 2, but I'll go ahead and invoke Godwin's law for an example. Why? Because as humans, we are drawn to people with a strong force of personality: that is, charisma.

When viewed less as an arbitrary measure of attractiveness, and more as measure of your self-confidence and self-awareness, Cha bumps to Golarion goblins make a bit more sense.

... still doesn't mean I'll allow them at my table...

Personally, I like using "comliness" as my physical attraction stat. 3d6+Cha mod, but I've wanted to see linguistic skill divided from physical beauty in stats for ages.

But while I see the "passion" argument, it's the passion of a toddler. That sort of, latch on to the one thing you want right now and go after it with reckless abandon, until you fall asleep and wake up tomorrow wanting something else. The way that the skill system applies Cha doesn't really utilize this method of looking at charisma. Charisma checks when dealing with "passion" deal with something more like fire and brimstone southern baptist sermons. I don't see PF's goblins as ever having that kind of passion.

 

[Rils]

I agree with the first sentence - charisma doesn't equal comeliness.

However, I didn't use the word "passion" to define Charisma, perhaps you misunderstood me. Maybe some dictionary definitions will clarify, these popped up in a simple google search:

"a special power that some people have naturally that makes them able to influence other people and attract their attention"
"the ability to attract the attention and admiration of others, and to be seen as a leader"
"a special personal quality or power of an individual making him or her capable of influencing or inspiring large numbers of people"

Synonyms are listed as presence, personality, strength of character, magnetism. These are the sense of how our group characterizes and uses the Charisma stat, it makes way more sense to us and covers a much greater range of personality possibilities than simple "comeliness". It complements the Wisdom stat - Wisdom being inner strength of self, Charisma being outward projection of self.

 

[Tranquilis]

For the record though, I’m pretty sure Charisma in D&D and PF means the same thing it means in English, which doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with either physical attractiveness or linguistic skill, though both can be components. Ultimately it just means force of personality. Social magnetism. Likableness.

“Likableness”. I like it: a simple, one word description that makes my mind apply it to all sorts of PC, NPC, literary, and real-world folks for a test fit. You’ve given me something to think about! Good show!

 

[Charlaquin]

“Likableness”. I like it: a simple, one word description that makes my mind apply it to all sorts of PC, NPC, literary, and real-world folks for a test fit. You’ve given me something to think about! Good show!

Glad I could help!

 

[Brian Yarbrough]

i have no problem with goblins as PCs, goblins are great, that being said, i do have a problem with completely and mathematically changing what it means to be goblin. goblins, being small spindly creatures, have always taken a -2 STR. makes perfect sense. their annoying personalities have always given them a -2 to charisma, and being the thieves and scavengers they are a +4 dex. now if PF2.0 didnt want to give a huge +4 to dex that would be one thing, but to completely ignore their penalty to STR while going from a penalty to a BONUS on charisma is laughably BAD! i strongly suggest a -2 STR, -2 CHR, +2 DEX and let the player use the floating +2 bonus wherever they choose, INCLUDING stacking it onto DEX ( keeping with tradition) or they can use it to minimize a penalty ( as htis would halep players put goblins into classes they might not suited to otherwise.

 

[Charlaquin]

i have no problem with goblins as PCs, goblins are great, that being said, i do have a problem with completely and mathematically changing what it means to be goblin. goblins, being small spindly creatures, have always taken a -2 STR. makes perfect sense. their annoying personalities have always given them a -2 to charisma, and being the thieves and scavengers they are a +4 dex. now if PF2.0 didnt want to give a huge +4 to dex that would be one thing, but to completely ignore their penalty to STR while going from a penalty to a BONUS on charisma is laughably BAD! i strongly suggest a -2 STR, -2 CHR, +2 DEX and let the player use the floating +2 bonus wherever they choose, INCLUDING stacking it onto DEX ( keeping with tradition) or they can use it to minimize a penalty ( as htis would halep players put goblins into classes they might not suited to otherwise.

I expect they want to change PC races to universally have two ability boosts and one ability flaw (which we are assuming means +2/-2), as well as the floating ability boost. Giving Goblins a flaw to Strength hardly seems necessary to express their small stature, given that their Size being Small already covers that. I agree that Charisma would be better as their ability flaw than as one of their ability boost. But what to put their second ability boost in? Strength makes no sense for obvious reasons. Constitution doesn't seem right. Intelligence is definitely wrong. I'd still argue that Wisdom would be the least inappropriate place to put it, but I'm sure many would disagree. Really, nothing but Dexterity fits, and I assume they don't want to give any PC races two ability boosts to any single stat (which is why the floating boost doesn't stack). They're really in a position of having to choose the best out of five almost equally bad options. At least with Charisma the argument can be made that a goblin would need exceptionally high Charisma for one of their race to be accepted by a group of adventurers.

 

[wakedown]

PF2e is definitely going more the "game" route than prior editions, discarding verisimilitude along the way.

Imagine in a game like Warcraft if taller races had higher Strength, which translated to 20% increased damage output.

Folks would never roll a goblin or gnome!

Or if there was a penalty in MtG that any card picturing a small creature got -1 attack strength.


There's those of us who never had a problem with a TTRPG having built-in mechanics that penalized a small race's Strength because it made sense. Balance wasn't an issue. I've played plenty of melee gnomes based on Strength and it didn't bother me that my point-buy netted me out with a less efficient strength than my human counterpart.

 

[Shasarak]

I have to admit that I never would have pegged the Goblin as the race to get a Charisma boost.

They have the sort of face that makes the Doctor slap the mother when they are born.

Probably a Con boost makes more sense since they live in filth and yet somehow dont die.

 

[Kurviak]

They seem to be giving one physical and one mental boost to each ansestry

 

[Charlaquin]

They seem to be giving one physical and one mental boost to each ansestry

That seems premature to assume given our sample size of one. For example, I’d bet that Half-Orcs get Boosts to Strength and Constitution.