The Goblin - Pathfinder 2's Newest Ancestry!

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Today's Pathfinder 2nd Edition update is all about the Goblin! Paizo introduces the first (and the newest) of the game's Ancestries. As always, this information will be added to the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Compiled Info Page!

• Goblins! Last night Paizo revealed the first of the Ancestries - the Goblin!
  • Boosts to Dexterity and Charisma plus one other ability score of your choice
  • Flaw to Wisdom
  • 6 hit points
  • Speed 25'
  • Common and Goblin starting language
  • Darvision (see in the dark as though it were daylight)
  • Sample Ancestry feats --
    • Burn It -- bonus damage on fire spells or alchemical items, and increases persistent fire damage by 1 points.
    • Junk Tinkerer -- craft ordinary, poor quality items out of junk.
    • Razor Teeth -- 1d6 piercing damage.
    • Very Sneaky -- move additional 5' when taking the sneak action (normally half speed) and possibly render target flat-footed.
• Jason Bulmahn on including Goblins -- "Concerning goblins and how they fit in Golarion: Times change and so do people's opinions. Goblins as PCs have been a part of our world since the first "We Be Goblins" adventure. Many of the comments here echo those from back during the launch of 3.0 when Half-Orcs returned to the game as a player choice. There was a lot of conflict at first, but the tone of them shifted over time. We always knew this would be a bit controversial and that there were some who would loudly proclaim "not at my table" and I get that. It's your table and your game after all. We are moving forward, trying to allow players to explore these characters, their culture, and their viewpoint. We are hoping to give you plenty of reasons, both mechanically and story-driven, to allow goblins in your game."
• Mark Seifter on that flexible ability boost -- "It's one of ways you get to really customize your ancestry to fit your character concept, melding the story and life of your character to the mechanics. Plus you can play the class you want without worrying about as much of an uphill battle with ability scores if you don't match the bonuses from the race with the class you had it mind. Incidentally, it provides a really nice design space to much more easily create and handle subraces that have different ability modifiers... "
• Mark Seifter confirms that repairing an item is a untrained use but building is trained only.
• Seifter on failed saves vs. dominate -- "the wording is subtly different now. Anyway, because it implies what you've said here, I wouldn't say "if you critically fail your save against dominate, you are completely under the spellcaster's control". There is still some possibility to resist a particularly abhorrent new order on a critical failure, but you're going to have to fulfill that first command no matter what."
• Community News --
  • Frank "Mottokrosh" Reding has put up the results of his survey regarding the future of his Pathfinder character sheet app.

 

[snickersnax]

there most prominent mental trait is there loads of personality ..thus cha

there lack of common sense is why they have low wisdom.

as for str? meh chimps are stronger then men, i have no issue with goblins being strong for there size

high charisma = more social influence, not lots of personality.

With a +2 charisma bonus Paizo has raised goblins to be the most socially influential ancestry (we may yet see a tie).

I'm not really sure why no one seems to be bothered by strength. Chimps are strong for their weight, and they weigh a lot for their height, but the old idea that they were a lot stronger than a man is partially debunked. They are 1.35x as strong on a pound for pound basis.

On the other hand boxing and wrestling weight classes are in place because 10-20 lbs of weight difference is a noticeable advantage in combat. The idea that the strongest goblin-sized goblin is as strong as the strongest man just doesn't make any sense to me without resorting to a magical explanation.

Goblins don't really fill the shoes of a core player character race (following a standard bonus plan) because they are generally so bad at so many things. It feels like they are getting inflated to try to elevate their status as a core PC class.

 

[Charlaquin]

cha is not really about likable in pathfinder, it can be but does not have to be.
there good sorcerers , have tons of mostly undeserved confidence, cha works for me.

Sure, it doesn't have to necessarily mean that a character is likable, but it does mean that they have... Well, charisma. Social magnetism. The ability to influence others via strong personality, confidence, etc. Goblins are pretty specifically socially maladapted.

wisdom is basicly common sense,
to paraphrase an old saying , intelligence is knowing how to make a bomb
wisdom is knowing when not to use it

Yes, that is what the books say Wisdom represents, but if you look at its actual in-game functions, that's kind of nonsense. What does Wisdom add to? Will saves, heal, perception, profession, sense motive, and survival checks, and Cleric, Druid, and Ranger magic. Things that involve awareness and intuition (which is really just social awareness). I have an easier time picturing goblins being good at those things than with them being good at bluff, diplomacy, disguise, handle animal, intimidate, perform, and use magic device checks and Bard, Paladin, and Sorcerer magic. That's the thing, I'm more interested in what the abilities do than what character traits they ostensibly represent. It's one thing to say, "Goblins have a lot of personality and Charisma represents personality." It's another thing to say "Goblins are characterized as having bombastic personalities, therefore they should be significantly better at the Profession and Persuasion than dwarves are."

Side note, I just realized that Charisma being the default Ability for Resonance makes a lot of sense when you consider it's the Ability for Use Magic Device.

 

[Charlaquin]

high charisma = more social influence, not lots of personality.

With a +2 charisma bonus Paizo has raised goblins to be the most socially influential ancestry (we may yet see a tie).

They might tie with Halflings, who are likely to get +2 Dex and Cha and -2 Str, and Gnomes who are likely to get +2 Con and Cha and -2 Str.

Hmm... That would mean all of the Small races get +2 Cha as well, which is... Weird...

I'm not really sure why no one seems to be bothered by strength. Chimps are strong for their weight, and they weigh a lot for their height, but the old idea that they were a lot stronger than a man is partially debunked. They are 1.35x as strong on a pound for pound basis.

On the other hand boxing and wrestling weight classes are in place because 10-20 lbs of weight difference is a noticeable advantage in combat. The idea that the strongest goblin-sized goblin is as strong as the strongest man just doesn't make any sense to me without resorting to a magical explanation.

Yeah, but like... I don't really care how strong chimps are compared to humans. Goblins aren't chimps. They're a made-up fantasy species and I have no problem accepting that they are exceptionally strong for their size. In fact, as a traditionally monstrous race, I think it's rather appropriate that they be deceptively strong in spite of their stature. And like... It's just 2 points. It's the difference between -1 and +0. Maybe if they were getting +2 to strength I'd find it hard to swallow, but having this 4-foot-tall monster be about as strong as a 6-foot-tall human doesn't seem all that outlandish to me.

Goblins don't really fill the shoes of a core player character race (following a standard bonus plan) because they are generally so bad at so many things. It feels like they are getting inflated to try to elevate their status as a core PC class.

Now that I can agree with. Goblins by all rights should have pretty low base ability scores, and forcing them into the +2 physical, +2 social, -2 any one and floating +2 ends up being awkward any way you slice it. But whatever, I'm willing to grant that the Goblins who become adventurers are just better than most Goblins.

 

[Aldarc]

They might tie with Halflings, who are likely to get +2 Dex and Cha and -2 Str, and Gnomes who are likely to get +2 Con and Cha and -2 Str.

Hmm... That would mean all of the Small races get +2 Cha as well, which is... Weird...

I could see Paizo moving the Gnome to a +2 Intelligence instead of Charisma. Pathfinder initially came around when there was still reluctance within the culture of the 3.X system for giving core races bonuses to either Strength or Intelligence, at least not without some significant penalties that outweighed what were perhaps unfairly regarded as the prime martial and magical/skill stats.

 

[snickersnax]

Maybe if they were getting +2 to strength I'd find it hard to swallow, but having this 4-foot-tall monster be about as strong as a 6-foot-tall human doesn't seem all that outlandish to me.

To be clear Pathfinder PC goblins are listed as 2'10' to 3'4" (...not 4') and 32-38 lbs. In PF1 they had -2 strength, so this does represent +2 strength over the previous edition

The published description in PF1 calls them weak and scrawny. In light of these descriptions, having goblins be as strong as humans seems outlandish to me.

 

[houser2112]

Maybe if they were getting +2 to strength I'd find it hard to swallow, but having this 4-foot-tall monster be about as strong as a 6-foot-tall human doesn't seem all that outlandish to me.

To be clear Pathfinder PC goblins are listed as 2'10' to 3'4" (...not 4') and 32-38 lbs. In PF1 they had -2 strength, so this does represent +2 strength over the previous edition

I think he means a +2 Strength relative to the edition's baseline (like a 3.x half-orc), not to itself in a prior edition.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think he means a +2 Strength relative to the edition's baseline (like a 3.x half-orc), not to itself in a prior edition.

That’s correct. A neutral strength doesn’t bother me. A bonus would.

As for their height and weight, a 3-foot goblin with the strength of a human doesn’t bother me either. They’re imaginary monsters, I see no reason they shouldn’t be astoundingly strong for their size.

 

[snickersnax]

As for their height and weight, a 3-foot goblin with the strength of a human doesn’t bother me either. They’re imaginary monsters, I see no reason they shouldn’t be astoundingly strong for their size.

OK, so they are imaginary monsters with a verbal description that says, "weak and scrawny" and NOT "astoundingly strong for their size."

Doesn't it bother you that the math doesn't match the narrative description?

 

[Charlaquin]

OK, so they are imaginary monsters with a verbal description that says, "weak and scrawny" and NOT "astoundingly strong for their size."

Doesn't it bother you that the math doesn't match the narrative description?

Dude, the math has never matched the narrative description. The narrative description also tells me that having “common sense” makes me better at CPR and having good hand-eye coordination makes me sneaky.

 

[snickersnax]

Dude, the math has never matched the narrative description. The narrative description also tells me that having “common sense” makes me better at CPR and having good hand-eye coordination makes me sneaky.

Wut? Math often matches the narrative. That it sometimes doesn't, isn't a good reason to accept more poor quality design. Also I think you picked two poor examples to support your argument. Having personally saved someone's life with CPR, I can definitely say common sense helps a lot. And you are right, it is not good hand-eye coordination that makes you sneaky, its good foot coordination.