The gosh darn Dervish delimma

[Kai']

Okay… I know that 12th level makes for a pretty powerful group. This one in particular has only 4 characters. A sorcerer, a cleric, a rogue, and a fighter… a Dervish.

I know that the Dervish has been subject of some debate. In this party, the Dervish and the Rogue are the melee people. However, the Rogue is having a hard time keep all of her levels and is now quite a few levels behind… leaving the Dervish to provide main front line support (having the most hit points to do so anyway). Being only the four characters, I was thinking that a Dervish counter-balances the danger to the small size of the party with only one melee person.

The Dervish just made 12th level. There are the questions I have…
1) Even in a small party with only one melee person, is this Dervish over-powered?
2) if the answer to #2 was yes, then how would you suggest lowering the power of the Dervish without taking away any of its current abilities? For example, start taking other types of feats like skill booster or saving throw booster?
3) If the Dervish takes Power Attack (the next goal after 12th level), does the slashing, martial weapon count? According to CW, the Dervish gets an ability “Slashing Blades” that makes the normally one-handed melee scimitar a light weapon for a Dervish. However, for all accounts, the weapon itself is still a one-handed melee weapon. Should Power Attack work for this build?

Fighter 6/Dervish 6

STR: 18 (16, +1 4th lvl, +1 8th lvl)
DEX: 22 (18, +1 12th lvl, +3 gloves)
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 7
CHA: 12

Saves: Fort: 9 Ref: 13 Will: 5

BAB: +12/+7/+2 Grapple: +16
TWF Attack: +20/+20/+15/+15/+10 Damage: 1d6+9/1d6+7 CRIT: 15-20 x2
Dervish Dance: +23/+23/+18/+18/+13 Damage: 1d6+12/1d6+10 CRIT: 15-20x2
[to hit includes: BAB, DEX, Melee Wpn Mastery feat (+2 hit/+2 dmg), Wpn Focus, Ench, Dervish bonus (+3 only listed on Dervish Dance) and penalty for TWF]

Average damage per round: 50-80 points of damage on average (perspective: the top amount of damage possible is 172 in one round - not including any special damage from Sacred bonus on scimitar)

Armor: Mithral Breastplate +2, Amulet Natural Armor +1; Ring of Protect +1
Weapons: twin Scimitars, Cold Iron, Sacred (LM) +1

HP: 112
AC: 26 (27 w/dodge)

Skills(modifier, ranks, synergy, and any armor check penalty):
Balance 22; Climb 13; Jump 24; Perform Dance 16; Ride 15; Swim 13; Tumble 22

Feats:
Dodge -> Mobility -> Spring Attack (granted by Dervish class)
Two Weapon Fighting -> Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus -> Weapon Specialization
Combat Expertise
Improved Critical
Weapon Finesse
Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB2)
Cleave (Dervish ability Dance of Death)

 

[Gold Roger]

I'd say that depends on the rest of the group. In a group of otherwhise non PRC'ed PCs I'd say, yes, chances are he is overpowered in realation. I'd say that is less a problem of the PRC and more one of group dynamics.

Ask the other players if they are bothered by the dervishs dominance. If the answer is yes ask the dervish player to step back a little from the combat spotlight and/or help the other players in powering up their PC's a bit, depending on the preferences of the individual players.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The Dex looks a tad high (what are other PC stats like), and what is a +3 item? That shouldn't exist. How are other PCs equipped?

You're not overpowered. You've obviously rolled stats, which isn't exactly great for game balance, so you end up with over-the-top physicals (you rolled a Strength of 16, Dex 18 and Con of 16!) and a Wisdom of 7. You didn't even minmax a higher Wisdom for a lower Charisma. Seriously, fighter types are already magnets for Will save spells. I wonder why every encounter with a spellcaster doesn't involve you being paralyzed by a Hold Monster spell or killing other PCs because you've been Dominated.

I can't account for two points of damage when not using Dervish Dance. +4 Strength (+2 off-hand), +1 magic weapon, +2 Weapon Specialization ... where are the other two points coming from? And what is a Sacred weapon?

So, you might be doing a tad too much damage, there are problems with your stat generation that go both ways, and it seems like your DM isn't using appropriate tactics. I'm not too familiar with the Dervish, but it seems to me there should be lots of times you're not getting full-round attacks. You should be very weak against archers. Archers with an attack bonus roughly equal to yours will fill you with arrows before you can reach them. Your DM should also use higher AC monsters. Unfortunately, monsters with AC scores that aren't crud are hard to find.

 

[Felon]

This is one of those funny thing about prestige classes. The designer tends to use a base class as a measuring stick (and it's not necessarily the class that's most logically suited to become the prestige class). In this case, it seems obvious (to me) that it was a barbarian. Reduce d12 hit dice to d10 in order, cash that reduction it in for a good Will save, and there you are. Regard the dervish dance is a variant of rage.

So now you have some frame of comparison. Ask yourself, what makes you have more trepadations about a 12th-level dancing dervish than a 12th-level raging barbarian? If a barbarian outperform a rogue in melee, is there something wrong? Seems OK to me.

If it's any consolation, bear in mind the movement bonuses the dervish receives are enhancement bonuses which, as any scout/dervish can tell you, makes them pretty damned near worthless, because enhancement movement bonuses don't stack and they're not hard to come by. So the dervish basically gets nothing at 2nd level.

 

[Anson Caralya]

I've done some soul-searching over dervishes as well. The fact that I'm attracted to them probably means they're borderline-overpowered.

If the Dervish takes Power Attack (the next goal after 12th level), does the slashing, martial weapon count? According to CW, the Dervish gets an ability “Slashing Blades” that makes the normally one-handed melee scimitar a light weapon for a Dervish. However, for all accounts, the weapon itself is still a one-handed melee weapon. Should Power Attack work for this build?

I would say no.

A dervish treats the scimitar as a light weapon (rather than a one-handed weapon) for all purposes, including fighting with two weapons.

"for all purposes" does it for me. Really, this is one of the only downsides in the dervish's arsenal. "A thousand cuts" is an absolutely sick ability.

 

[Sejs]

"For all purposes" kind of puts the nail in the power attacking dervish's coffin there, sorry.

On the other hand it does mean you can use your scimitars when in a grapple or when swallowed whole, so it's not all bad.

 

[TheEvil]

The Dervish just made 12th level. There are the questions I have…
1) Even in a small party with only one melee person, is this Dervish over-powered?

Depends... but if the other players aren't complaining, then I would say no, even if you are more powerful then they are. How is that communication, anyway?

2) if the answer to #2 was yes, then how would you suggest lowering the power of the Dervish without taking away any of its current abilities? For example, start taking other types of feats like skill booster or saving throw booster?

I would recommend building up your weaknesses, as others have mentioned, your will save comes to mind. If your power level really is a problem, might I suggest Iron will, Endurance and Indominable Soul? You are a long way from there, but it would give you something to look forward to...

3) If the Dervish takes Power Attack (the next goal after 12th level), does the slashing, martial weapon count? According to CW, the Dervish gets an ability “Slashing Blades” that makes the normally one-handed melee scimitar a light weapon for a Dervish. However, for all accounts, the weapon itself is still a one-handed melee weapon. Should Power Attack work for this build?

I would ask your GM. The wording seems pretty clear, but you never know... Maybe if you just couldn't use it as a light weapon and power attack at the same time?

 

[Kunimatyu]

Amusingly, the Dervish isn't even at the bleeding edge of twinkery. For that, he'd need a keen Falchion(or ImpCrit) so that he could two-handed power attack while dancing and crit on a 15-20.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I think he's going to seem high-powered in melee, but that's compared to the rogue, who is not an optimal combatant. One of my PC's had a Dervish cohort in a high-level game, but I didn't see him as too overpowered.

 

[Kai']

Weapon Finesse versus Power Attack

Hmm... I see your point. If one has weapon finesse then they aren't power attacking with it and vice versa (cannot power attack with and finesse per the feat description restricting application to light weapons).

Okay, so here is another question on that note... the dervish's Slashing Blades ability, should it be character optional? If so, should it be made a permanent choice to use or toss it out, or an optional one to be used situationally?