D&D 5E The Grappler's Manual (2.0) - Grappling in 5th Edition

[Goken100]

By the way, the analysis of the Martial Adept feat is flawed. It incorrectly states that the dice refresh once a day, when it fact it is once a rest. My recommendation is that it be changed to Black or possibly even blue. I'm getting the feat for my Barbarian/Rogue Grappler for whom neither Shield Master nor Tavern Brawler is a good fit (for flavor reasons).

[Begin soapbox] Minor addendum: Saying "just take 3 levels of Fighter instead" is rediculous. The meat of the D&D experience is from level 4 to level 9, and any realistic build needs to be made with that in mind. Playing in a high level campaign? Congratulations, you're 1 in 100, but did you just really hate the 1 year you spent getting there and are finally playing the character you wanted? If the character's not at least starting to come together by level 5, you're just torturing yourself. [/End Soapbox]

 

[Reflected_Shadows]

I appreciate your efforts to return grappling to modern edition. I love grappling and I homebrewed my own rules to simplify and streamline it.
I believe grappling should feel like a natural part of regular combat. Monks are great for the task because you can go trip, grab, pin.
Anyway, I believe you did a nice job - but I feel like you kept the big problem, which is that grappling works on convoluted system that is egregious to perform in-game.

 

[Arandomperson]

So you think in a grappling guide he should change the rules of the system he is making the guide for? How did you reach that conclusion...

 

[the_move]

If a magical shield - like a simple Magic Shield +1 - is used as an improvised weapon (Tavern Brawler), will it then also count as magical (weapon) in order to overcome resistances and immunities to nonmagical attacks and damage?

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[Goken100]

If a magical shield - like a simple Magic Shield +1 - is used as an improvised weapon (Tavern Brawler), will it then also count as magical (weapon) in order to overcome resistances and immunities to nonmagical attacks and damage?

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No, not unless the entry for the item specifically says that it does. It's like using a magic music box as an improvised weapon. Just because it is enchanted to do something doesn't mean it can also be a magically effective weapon. See, for example, the magical staff implements in the DMG (or SRD or Basic DM Guide). About 3/4 of them have a property that states they specifically function as a magical quarterstaff. But the remaining 1/4, such as the Staff of Fire, do not have that property. Those items can be used as mundane quarterstaffs, but such attacks would not overcome reistance or immunity to mundane damage.

 

[the_move]

No, not unless the entry for the item specifically says that it does. It's like using a magic music box as an improvised weapon. Just because it is enchanted to do something doesn't mean it can also be a magically effective weapon. See, for example, the magical staff implements in the DMG (or SRD or Basic DM Guide). About 3/4 of them have a property that states they specifically function as a magical quarterstaff. But the remaining 1/4, such as the Staff of Fire, do not have that property. Those items can be used as mundane quarterstaffs, but such attacks would not overcome reistance or immunity to mundane damage.

On the other hand if a thing has a property that states it specifically functions as a magical quarterstaff, then it won't count as an improvised weapon at all. Those are then designated simple weapons, and you do not need the Tavern Brawler feat in order to gain your proficiency bonus when using such. Simple weapons are a category for themselves. Sry, but your example is not very appropiate.

 

[Goken100]

On the other hand if a thing has a property that states it specifically functions as a magical quarterstaff, then it won't count as an improvised weapon at all. Those are then designated simple weapons, and you do not need the Tavern Brawler feat in order to gain your proficiency bonus when using such. Simple weapons are a category for themselves. Sry, but your example is not very appropiate.

I appreciate the respectful manner of the disagreement, thanks mate.

So I was not addressing anything to do with improvised weapons, and really that doesn't enter into the question at all. The point is that nothing functions as a magic weapon unless is says very specifically that it does. The magic implement example functions to demonstrate that rule of thumb because if ALL of those staffs functioned as magic weapons just by virtue of being magical items, there would be no purpose for the "fuctions as a magical quarterstaff" language. And yet it is there; thus, without such language, no magical attacks.

 

[the_move]

It might also be questionable if for example a magic wand is massive enough to actually be used as a weapon. You could try and stab someone with it, but you will have a hard time penetrating someone's armor. Some items might therefore may not qualify to be used as a weapon at all, even when improvising. Still, your answer sounds reasonable.

On the other hand the Zoltar Sage Advice has answered my question positively. His argument might be similar to mine.

Firstly if you are using an item as an improvised weapon, it counts as a weapon. If the item is magical, it retains that property, even when being (mis)used as a weapon. And most magic weapons or spells/effects (Shillelagh) do not explicitely state they bypass resistances/immunities, because they are magical. Such phrases are used with special features like the moon druid's Primal Strike. The devotion paladin's Sacred Weapon Channel Divinity does not contain that special phrase about overcoming resistances and immunities either, but it mentions that the weapon used becomes magical, and it does so for that very reason. To overcome resistances and immunities to nonmagical attacks and damage. Now what if he uses his feature upon an improvised weapon? And the feature states that if the weapon is not magical, it becomes magical. But what if the item/improvised weapon is magical already? A magic item can't get more magical than magical.

Secondly, the shield is a massive item, which when used as a (bludgeoning) weapon can cause severe injuries. Magic items are often described as not wearing out. They do not rust or decompose by natural means and can only be destroyed by casting Dispel Magic upon them in order to let them become nonmagical. Magical shields with an AC bonus also give the impression, that they are even sturdier by magical means. Every magic item has a magical aura upon it. Otherwise Detect Magic would not work. One might argue that this aura is also, what might affect it's behaviour.

These factors gives me the idea that even though the magic inherited by an item might not be meant for fighting capabilities in particular, it might work out as a magical weapon, since there is magic engulfing it. And especially shields might enforce this, since those were often used not only as a defensive measure, but on the offensive, too.

Guess it's up to each DM's ruling then.

 

[Goken100]

It might also be questionable if for example a magic wand is massive enough to actually be used as a weapon. You could try and stab someone with it, but you will have a hard time penetrating someone's armor. Some items might therefore not be qualified to be used as a weapon at all, even when improvising. Still, your answer sounds reasonable.

Agreed concerning wands - tricky to use as an improvised weapon at best (I'd probably allow 1 damage). To be clear, the previous implements I was talking about were all staff implements, not wands. While 100% of staff implements can be used as a quarterstaff per the rules, only around 75% function as magic weapons. This means that 25% of magic staff implements, some of them quite potent, are designed to function as non-magical quarterstaffs. And if the inherent magic of a Staff of Fire doesn't make it a magical weapon, most would agree that armor is even less likely to function that way.

On the other hand the Zoltar Sage Advice has answered my question positively. His argument might be similar to mine.

Can you provide a link?

Firstly if you are using an item as an improvised weapon, it counts as a weapon. If the item is magical, it retains that property, even when (mis)used as a weapon. And most magic weapons do not state they bypass resistances because they are magical. Such phrases are used with special features like the moon druid's Primal Strike. The devotion paladin's Sacred Weapon Channel Divinity does not contain that special phrase about overcoming resistances and immunities for example, but it mentions that the weapon used becomes magical, and it does so for that reason. To overcome resistances and immunities to nonmagical attacks and damage. Now what if he uses his feature upon an improvised weapon?

Explanatory rules are generally only needed when there is the possibility of doubt. There is no doubt that a magic weapon functions as a magic weapon. To include such a note would be redundant, wasteful, and confusing. With magic implements, armor, and music boxes there is less certainty.

Secondly, the shield is a massive item, which when used as a (bludgeoning) weapon can cause severe injuries. Magic items are often described as not wearing out. They do not rust or decompose by natural means and can only be broken by casting Dispel Magic upon them in order to let them become nonmagical. Magical shields with an AC bonus also give the impression, that they are even sturdier by magical means. Every magic item has a magical aura upon it. Otherwise Detect Magic would not work. One might argue that this aura is also, what might affect it's behaviour.

These factors gives me the idea that even though the magic inherited by an item might not be meant for fighting capabilities in particular, it might work out as a magical weapon, since there is magic engulfing it. And especially shields might enforce this, since those were often used not only as a defensive measure, but on the offensive, too.

Guess it's up to each DM's ruling then.

I will say that I personnally love the idea of using a shield as an improvised weapon, and do so with my grappling characters. The DM certainly has the ability to rule that a magic shield functions as a magic weapon for a wielder with Tavern Brawler. If a DM ruled as such for one of my characters, I would happily bash away with nary a complaint. It is my opinion that the weight of evidence is against this being the most consistent ruling, and that you are unlikely to benefit from such a ruling in an organized play environment such as Adventurers' League. That said, some DMs will be generous and roll with it. But expect table variation.

 

[the_move]

I hope the link is working...

https://twitter.com/Nochwasfrei/status/716572477577629696