D&D (2024) The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules

[nevin]

Because the former is not the intended path to victory for the martial while the latter very much is the intended path to victory for the caster?


If it sounds like I've seen it before it is because I have. This question ("why did they take away my toys?") was asked ten years ago. It was asked twenty years ago. It was asked thirty years ago.

The answer remains the same.

---

The only thing left to do is respond to your implication: that spellcasters get an unfair advantage since they get to use spells instead of weapons.

I'm not going to argue against this. Instead I would like to encourage you to play a spellcaster if you believe spells are better than weapons.

Have a nice day

This should be posted at the beginning of all martal vs spellcaster posts. and about every 3rd post.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Because the former is not the intended path to victory for the martial while the latter very much is the intended path to victory for the caster?

Anytime the monster's AC and hit points doesn't matter for a martial, something's gone wrong. It is far from the first time a dev team finds out that their "alternative" combat system (whether it's a separate system for unarmed combat, weapon duels or grappling etc) means minmaxer dump the regular combat system. (Likewise if there's a "spell duel" system that bypasses regular spell resolution. Either it sucks or it is OP)

In short, it's practically impossible to achieve total parity between competing systems. (Unless, you know, you make the systems work identically, which kind of defeats the point). Put simply, either grappling is better than regular combat or it is worse. Either everybody uses it or nobody uses it.

Again and again AND AGAIN we have a situation where it comes as news to a dev team, who hastily has to remove or nerf the alternative system so it's no longer used by minmaxers. This is just another such day. It has happened countless times before and it will happen countless times again.

If it sounds like I've seen it before it is because I have. This question ("why did they take away my toys?") was asked ten years ago. It was asked twenty years ago. It was asked thirty years ago.

The answer remains the same.

Or the solution could be to give martials more than one way beside grappling to bypass the systems in place, the same way that casters have already had since the beginning of time.

That you never thought of that as a solution tells me you would rather keep that caster and martial imbalance in place. And you're telling me and everyone else who sees that as a problem to shut up and play the game.

The only thing left to do is respond to your implication: that spellcasters get an unfair advantage since they get to use spells instead of weapons.

I'm not going to argue against this. Instead I would like to encourage you to play a spellcaster if you believe spells are better than weapons.

Have a nice day

But what if I don't want to play a spellcaster? What if the vision for my character involves someone skilled with weapons and not magic? You're telling me I have to accept playing a less capable character, and I should shut up and be happy about it, and don't make any demands for improving weapon-using characters.

And none of your condescending dismissals are going to change that fact.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Because all day long and such. Casters are limited by slots and keeping up concentration. Except when you only have one big encounter per day...

That being limited by spell slots thing very rarely works out in actual play.

 

[nevin]

That being limited by spell slots thing very rarely works out in actual play.

but the concentration thing works quite well if enforced. Slots became pointless when we went to short and long rests.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That being limited by spell slots thing very rarely works out in actual play.

In your play maybe... We are also actually playing.

You are really falling to a logical fallacy: we can't make it work, so noone can...

but hey, maybe I am mistaken and only we can make it work...
(we just changed the rest rules for a while, where a long rest is a day long (24 hours) not just a night (8 hours). Worked wonders.

 

[Stalker0]

Because the former is not the intended path to victory for the martial while the latter very much is the intended path to victory for the caster?

Anytime the monster's AC and hit points doesn't matter for a martial, something's gone wrong. It is far from the first time a dev team finds out that their "alternative" combat system (whether it's a separate system for unarmed combat, weapon duels or grappling etc) means minmaxer dump the regular combat system. (Likewise if there's a "spell duel" system that bypasses regular spell resolution. Either it sucks or it is OP)

In short, it's practically impossible to achieve total parity between competing systems. (Unless, you know, you make the systems work identically, which kind of defeats the point). Put simply, either grappling is better than regular combat or it is worse. Either everybody uses it or nobody uses it.

Again and again AND AGAIN we have a situation where it comes as news to a dev team, who hastily has to remove or nerf the alternative system so it's no longer used by minmaxers. This is just another such day. It has happened countless times before and it will happen countless times again.

If it sounds like I've seen it before it is because I have. This question ("why did they take away my toys?") was asked ten years ago. It was asked twenty years ago. It was asked thirty years ago.

The answer remains the same.

---

The only thing left to do is respond to your implication: that spellcasters get an unfair advantage since they get to use spells instead of weapons.

I'm not going to argue against this. Instead I would like to encourage you to play a spellcaster if you believe spells are better than weapons.

Have a nice day

Your assertion though is that grapple was OP in a way that made it where all martials were doing grapple builds, tbst the system was so good that other builds paled in comparison.

And…no one is saying that. Was grappling strong…it was. Was it the best build a martial can do?…not really. It was an option for a martial to trade damage for control. And it wasn’t the strongest form of control…but it was consistent which is why it was good.

On other words, it was a good option, not the only option.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Your assertion though is that grapple was OP in a way that made it where all martials were doing grapple builds, tbst the system was so good that other builds paled in comparison.

And…no one is saying that. Was grappling strong…it was. Was it the best build a martial can do?…not really. It was an option for a martial to trade damage for control. And it wasn’t the strongest form of control…but it was consistent which is why it was good.

On other words, it was a good option, not the only option.

The new one is still better. You can do it on an opportunity attack if you have a free hand. Even if your chance is lower. You can hold people away from your squishies without sacrificing an action.

And it is not bypassing combat rules.

 

[CapnZapp]

Your assertion though is that grapple was OP in a way that made it where all martials were doing grapple builds, tbst the system was so good that other builds paled in comparison.

And…no one is saying that. Was grappling strong…it was. Was it the best build a martial can do?…not really. It was an option for a martial to trade damage for control. And it wasn’t the strongest form of control…but it was consistent which is why it was good.

On other words, it was a good option, not the only option.

Well, not so much my assertion than my assumption of, one: what he was basing his complaint on, and two: what made WotC nerf grappling.

 

[CapnZapp]

Or the solution could be to give martials more than one way beside grappling to bypass the systems in place, the same way that casters have already had since the beginning of time.

Based on decades of experience, I just don't think that's going to work out.

Not saying it absolutely can't work, just that I have a lifetime of observing when it didn't.

That "system in place" is the core of D&D. I don't think D&D will be the game that finally cracks this puzzle, if one ever will.

 

[CapnZapp]

What if the vision for my character involves someone skilled with weapons and not magic? You're telling me I have to accept playing a less capable character, and I should shut up and be happy about it, and don't make any demands for improving weapon-using characters.

Well, for starters, plenty of people think weapon-users aren't less capable.

I hope you find a lot of fun in your weapon-using characters, even if they can't just grapple their way to victory.