D&D 5E (2024) The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules

[mellored]

If you get drunk, you lose your Dexterity. You can't Parkour.

But doesn't affect Strength. You can still lift.

 

[Maxperson]

In your view, is throwing a spear pure "brutal force"?

Yep. It's not a precision art. You are throwing hard at someone and the aiming portion is your proficiency + ability to punch the spear through.

Here is 5e RAW.

"Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force."

No agility anywhere.

"Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance."

Straight up says dex=agility.

In the real world strength is not agility, either. They are two separate things that are both used in many physical activities.

 

[Vikingkingq]

The main point is the conceptual plausibility. It is impossible to separate a premodern warrior from unarmed combat training. Even modern soldiers train in unarmed combat − especially for close quarters and build up (city) environments.

Regarding the UA 7 Fighter class description:

"Fighters learn the basics of ALL fighting styles" − including unarmed fighting styles.

I think this is a misleading truncation of the quote:

"Fighters rule many battlefields. Questing knights, royal champions, elite soldiers, and hardened mercenaries - as Fighters, they all share an unparalleled prowess with weapons and armor. And they are well acquainted with death, both meting it out and staring it defiantly in the face.

Fighters learn the basic of all combat styles. Every Fighter can swing an axe, fence with a rapier, wield a longsword or greatsword, and use a bow. Fighters master weapon techniques, allowing them to get the best use from a wide variety of weapons, and a well-equipped Fighter always has the right tool at hand for any combat situation. Likewise, a Fighter is adept with shields and every form of armor. Beyond that basic degree of familiarity, each Fighter specializes in certain styles of combat. Some concentrate on archery, some on fighting with two weapons at once, and some on augmenting their martial skills with magic."

This passage is not abstract or vague; the author(s) go into some detail about the Fighter's different abilities and training. And over and over again, the author(s) stress weapons, weapons, weapons. If they wanted to include unarmed combat as one of the core styles of the Fighter, they could have easily done so when they were listing the various specializations and techniques of the Fighter - and they did not do so.

 

[Vikingkingq]

Yeah, the UA descriptions of the classes have moved away from the "Forgotten Realms" sidebar that distinguishes between "arcane" versus "divine".

In the most recent UA PH 8, the Druid and Barbarian explicitly refer "primal magic" and "primal power", that orients around features of "nature" (such as landscapes and sunshine) and "animals".

(I was less of a fan of the spell list approach for the power sources anyway.)

Yes, but my point is that it's fluff, not mechanics. Primal is not a Power Source, it's not a Spell List, it's not a keyword.

Heh. I fundamentally mechanically emphasize, the claim that the fundamental mechanical concept of Strength is defining, actualizing, and meaningly (semiotically) associating.

By contrast, the Dex Monk is fundamentally irrelevant to a Strength wrestler concept.

Yes, I think you're wrong to do so. By seeking to rebalance Strength and Dex, you are arguing for too much, semantically absorbing everything within Dex into Strength. That wouldn't be balanced either.

And I reiterate: the Strength Monk is also a thing.

 

[Yaarel]

Yep. It's not a precision art. You are throwing hard at someone and the aiming portion is your proficiency + ability to punch the spear through.

Here is 5e RAW.

"Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force."

No agility anywhere.

"Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance."

Straight up says dex=agility.

In the real world strength is not agility, either. They are two separate things that are both used in many physical activities.

"Athletic training" = agility.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

"Athletic training" = agility.

Not in D&D. This continues to be your personal definition, no matter the real world synonyms or definitions.

In D&D, even if some words are synonymous or related in the real world,

• Strength isn't Agility.
• Athletics isn't Acrobatics.
• Sorcery isn't Wizardry.
• Minstrels aren't Bards.

Yes, you need different muscle skills for might and agility efforts. And just because muscles are used for all physical ambulatory purposes, it does not make all physical ability checks Strength-based by the rules.

Even if I were to use modern terminology, Strength training, Agility training, and Endurance training are literally different things, even if they all just train different muscles differently.

 

[Maxperson]

"Athletic training" = agility.

Not inherently.

 

[Yaarel]

If you get drunk, you lose your Dexterity. You can't Parkour.

But doesn't affect Strength. You can still lift.

Can you get drunk and Climb? Without dying?

 

[mellored]

Can you get drunk and Climb? Without dying?

Are you implying that climbing takes hand eye coordination, and thus should be Dex based?

 

[James Gasik]

Are you implying that climbing takes hand eye coordination, and thus should be Dex based?

I mean, if you reach for a handhold and miss because you're drunk, that could go pretty badly for you.