The greatest of stars: Wizard

[Scarface6174]

I think there's AOE's that target enemies only right? cause that would work wonders with #2.

As for the 1st one, I remember there's leaders that do keep a few minions or ranged artillery near them as bodyguards. An AOE would work against them I think. Or at least take down ALL his minion protectors and leave him bare.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I think there's AOE's that target enemies only right? cause that would work wonders with #2.

As for the 1st one, I remember there's leaders that do keep a few minions or ranged artillery near them as bodyguards. An AOE would work against them I think. Or at least take down ALL his minion protectors and leave him bare.

Re #1, interesting. I haven't spent much time with the MM -- I haven't DMed in a long time, and I'd rather the monsters remain a surprise.

Re #2, I don't think there are many low-level "enemies only" spells. Maybe I need t look again.

If there were a Utility, a Stance, a non-Epic feat, or a non-Epic item that enabled the "All creatures" AoEs to leave holes in the blast/burst, I'd be a lot happier. I liked the suggestion that the Spell Accuracy feat be available at Heroic Tier, but that it be restricted to a single square at Heroic and 2 squares at Paragon.

 

[KarinsDad]

With a high enough wis, and spell focus at epic lvs, it can. In an extreme case, a wizard with wis28 and spell focus forces the target to take a -11 penalty on his saves. For normal foes, this means they can never succeed on the saving throw to negate the effect (not even on a natural 20), basically locking them down for the duration of the entire fight.

Yup. We all know about this. Who cares? What player is so gung ho on horking the DMs high level creatures to the point that he would design his PC this way?

Even at lower lvs, the save penalty should be sufficient to let you effectively extend the spell's duration by an extra round or even 2. It is just that good.

Not quite. At Wisdom 18 at first level (which is real extreme), it does not extend the spell one or more extra rounds in 64% of encounters.

At Wisdom 20 at level 8, 55% of encounters.
At Wisdom 21 and Spell Focus at level 11, 37% of encounters.
At Wisdom 22 and SF at level 14, 28% of encounters.
At Wisdom 24 and SF at level 21, 18% of encounters.
At Wisdom 26 and SF at level 28, 9% of encounters.

Note: These percentanges assume that the foe does not have saving throw bonuses.


And, this becomes boring at high levels.

Wizard Player: "Woo hoo! I stunned the demon for the rest of the encounter!"
Other Players: "zzzzz Yeah, whatever dude."

What an anticlimatic way to play. Not much different than using cheat codes in computer games. Sure, it can be done, but what fun is it once one foe an encounter can be locked down or nearly always locked down if it is hit?


PS. It is likely that WotC will probably errata this anyway.

 

[Runestar]

What an anticlimatic way to play. Not much different than using cheat codes in computer games. Sure, it can be done, but what fun is it once one foe an encounter can be locked down or nearly always locked down if it is hit?

Hey, I don't write the rules, I just use the tools wotc gives me to the best of my ability and the confines of what my DM will allow.

A typical encounter will involve 4-5 foes. Orb will let you take 1 out of the fight permanently at higher lvs (and possibly debuff the rest). Which in turn makes combat easier for the rest of the party. What is not to like? Are you complaining from the POV of the players or the DM?

As for the AoE spells, they were probably thinking of the old tactical dichotomy: bunching is good some of the time, dispersal is good some of the time. If your AoE capability forces the monsters to disperse, it neutralizes some types of tactics.

Well, the problem with wizard AoEs is that they aren't fire-friendly, meaning that they will just as like hit your defender, unlike the cleric AoEs, which can make a distinction between friend and foe (and can buff your party in the process as well).

 

[KarinsDad]

Hey, I don't write the rules, I just use the tools wotc gives me to the best of my ability and the confines of what my DM will allow.

Well, the example you gave required either first level Wisdom 18 Demigod or first level Wisdom 20.

That's pretty extreme, regardless of which the player takes.

A good DM should pound such a choice (i.e. Fort save is low, too bad, the Wizard gets poisoned before he even gets his attack off).

There's nothing wrong with a bit of character optimization, but when a player just does it to get the Mega Trick Du Jour, the DM should respond by ALSO "just use the tools wotc gives him to the best of his ability ".

Good for the goose, good for the gander.

 

[Runestar]

Well, the example you gave required either first level Wisdom 18 Demigod or first level Wisdom 20.

There are people who don't go demigod?

Starting wis of 18 is not impossible. Seems that for a wizard, wis is arguably worth more than int (seeing how it also powers thunderwave), so as a human, elf or dwarf, you can probably afford a wis of 18 (which is really just 16 before the stat boost). So you begin with int16/wis18.

Plus, I wager it is only a matter of time before wotc does release a race which grants +2 to both int and wis.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of character optimization, but when a player just does it to get the Mega Trick Du Jour, the DM should respond by ALSO "just use the tools wotc gives him to the best of his ability ".

Good for the goose, good for the gander.

Oh trust me when I say I have been there with regards to DM optimizing as a way of matching PC optimizing. In fact, I wouldn't expect anything less, though I believe that it might be better for the goose than the gander.

 

[Elsbon]

As a player in BreHobit's D&D game, I would at least say that it seems much easier to get multiple enemies in a blast than many of you feel. Maybe it's because we have less players (5 max, but we've played as low as 3 a couple of times), but the wizard can almost always find 2 targets (using either Thunderwave or Scorching Blast), often can get 3, and occasionally more.

If you look at the total damage per round between say the warlock and the wizard (assuming +4 for prime attack modifiers):
Warlock: 1d10+1d6+mod = 5.5+3.5+4 = 13
Wizard: 1d6+4 = 7.5 * # of targets

So all the wizard needs is to get more than one enemy in his AoE spells to be doing "more damage".

The main argument against this is that the damage is spread around, and you're still taking a beating from multiple enemies.

While I've only played up to level 2 (and won't likely be playing much D&D for awhile after the TPK - see Brehobit's other thread for the sad tale), I would say that in my actual 4E D&D experience, so far Flaming Sphere has far and away been the best power I've seen. My Warlord's Lead the Attack was good, but I had to hit with it. Auto damage is crazy, crazy good.

 

[rethgryn]

I like my wizard, but he really needs his party to help, and that party really needs to have team players for his abilities to make the difference. I prefer the controller build. I don't even have Magic Missile and I am still competitve.

To illustrate what I mean about having a party of team players being important, consider this scenario played out with two different parties.

Me: Hey, Jax, stay out of this area so I can wallop all of them with an AoE. Duskwhisper, I need you to delay until after me so that I can icy terrain these guys, that way you get combat advantage against the prone ones, and you can use your rogue stuff, it will also keep those kobolds from shifting.

Jax: that, I charge right into the middle!
Duskwhisper: yeah, I rolled a higher initiative, I'll go when I want. *rolls* , I missed by one.
Me: Great, now I can cloud of daggers one of them or risk hitting two of my mates, go team.

Alternatively,

Me: Hey, Jax, stay out of this area so I can wallop all of them with an AoE. Duskwhisper, I need you to delay until after me so that I can icy terrain these guys, that way you get combat advantage against the prone ones, and you can use your rogue stuff, it will also keep those kobolds from shifting.
Jax: No problem, I charge to the edge and mark the closest one
Duskwhisper: After you, wizard
Me: I use Icy terrain, awesome, I hit the whole enemy team, no more shifting in that area for you Kobolds, and you're knocked down
Duskwhisper: *Rolls* Sweet, I killed one, Combat advantage for the win.

 

[Sadrik]

Oh for goodness sake.

The damage for the cleric's best ranged at will is 1d8+wis+implement.

The damage for the wizard's best ranged at will is A*(1d6+int+implement), where A is equal to the number of targets caught in the blast zone.

If A>1, then the wizard exceeds the cleric's damage.

Hey, you are right two of the wizards at-wills do that. and one of them even targets FORT!

Ah, but it is still only 1d6 damage vs 30+ HP critters (at first level). Now I like the extra HP I don't like that character damage is, well, crap (except for strikers).

In the games I have played the minions have not run around with their minion badge clipped to their shirt. So it was always a guess as to which were minions...

I really hope that they did not intentionally make their most iconic character (IMHO) weak. Maybe several books later or with more web enhancements they can get it right.

 

[KarinsDad]

Starting wis of 18 is not impossible. Seems that for a wizard, wis is arguably worth more than int (seeing how it also powers thunderwave), so as a human, elf or dwarf, you can probably afford a wis of 18 (which is really just 16 before the stat boost). So you begin with int16/wis18.

No, it's not impossible. It's just suboptimal except for the Orb trick, Thunderwave, and Cloud of Daggers.

Let's test your "wis is arguably worth more than int" theory.


First level Int 20 Wis 12 vs. Int 18 Wis 16 vs. Int 16 Wis 18 (same # of points).

Yes, Thunderwave can send a foe back 4 squares instead of 1 or 3, but that rarely is make or break (and of course, Thunderwave will not hit on as many foes with high Wis, so sending one foe back 0 or 4 and the other back 0 is typically not as good as sending two foes back 1 each, 9% of the time, this will happen, more with more foes). Yes, it could result in the foe being flanked or put into a wall or whatever, but usually not.

But the 5% or 10% difference on the attack hitting in the first place is pretty big:

As an example, 55% chance to hit with Int 20 Wis 12, 50% chance to hit with Int 18 Wis 16, 45% chance to hit with Int 16 Wis 18 using Cloud of Daggers (which is way Wisdom friendly).

.5 * 8.5 + .05 * 11 + 1 vs.
.45 * 7.5 + .05 * 10 + 3 vs.
.4 * 6.5 + .05 * 9 + 4

5.8 average damage vs. 6.875 vs. 7.05

Even though CoD is a huge Wisdom power, it does not average that much more damage. 1.25 points more per round vs. high Int. And at higher levels, it just gets closer in average damage. And in the case of minions, it matters not if the Wisdom is 12 or or 16 18.


On the other hand, Scorching Burst yields (same chances to hit as above):

1 foe: 4.8 vs. 3.875 vs. 3.05 (here, it's 1.75 more per round)
2 foes: 9.6 vs. 7.75 vs. 6.1
3 foes: 14.4 vs. 11.625 vs. 9.15

That's 24% more damage than option #2 and 57% more damage than option #3. When one considers Resist Fire 5, the more damage per shot, the better.

In fact, it's better for the 18 Wisdom Wizard to use Cloud of Dagger on one foe than it is to use Scorching Burst on two (except if they are minions).


However, that's just the At-Will powers. There are virtually no Wisdom Encounter and Daily powers. There, the high Int Wizard rules. So sure, the high Wis Wizard can lock down a foe (at real high levels) if he hits with an attack. But, he has to (generally) survive the low levels to get to that level of uberness.

Yup. One can have the one trick pony Wizard. I prefer a Wizard where most of his spells are real nice, not just one per encounter. Remember, an encounter might be with more than one group of foes too.

Too bad, the Wis 18 Wizard used his Orb on the Leader in the first group. What does he do on the Elite Solo in the second group? Answer: less damage, less times he hits, less control.


Note: Granted, a high Wisdom gives the Wizard a good Will save.