The greatest of stars: Wizard

[Runestar]

I would argue that the benefits of wis are somewhat more indirect for a wizard compared to the obvious benefits of int, but they are there. Granted, while I do tout the advantages of being able to lower the save of a foe every encounter, it is also worth noting that there is a notable dearth of save: ends spells at heroic tier, only a handful at paragon, and the majority are reserved for epic, so it might be worth it to consider wand or staff implement mastery at 1st lv, and pick up orb mastery as a second ability via the paragon feat. Regardless, you will still want to start investing in wis in preparation to (ab)use this ability.

Thunderwave seems innocuous enough on its own, but it really comes into its own when used in tandem with powers that trigger off movement, such as the bloodmage's bloodpulse or wall of fire (note that a literal interpretation allows you to push the foe in and out of the wall in a zig-zag manner to trigger the fire damage multiple times).

There are also a number of useful abilities keyed off wisdom, such as the spellstorm mage's storm spell. You will need a good wis anyways if you plan on entering divine oracle (arguably one of the best wizard PP in the game).

So the plus points are really more of a myriad of minor benefits coming together (and 1 major benefit).

And I leave you with this scenario.

 

[DracoSuave]

Other benefits of the Wizard that others might not have mentioned.

AoE means more attacks. More attacks means more Crits. More Crits means a lot more damage once the Critical: components of magical implements are factored in.

Wizards can use Staves. It's one thing when that thunderwave pushes a guy 6. It's another matter when you can change Thunderwave into a daily power that does 8d6+Int damage and knocks them prone. It's another matter when you can reroll displeasing damage dice on that one Fire Daily you love so much. It's another matter when you can make that Lightning Spell arc and hit more enemies.

Wizards can use Orbs. Orb of Invasive Fortune against a Dragon=Yes please, thank you.

 

[Cadfan]

Ah, but it is still only 1d6 damage vs 30+ HP critters (at first level). Now I like the extra HP I don't like that character damage is, well, crap (except for strikers).

That's a feature, not a bug.

The expected damage for an area of effect attack is equal to the average damage times the number of targets likely to be hit. If you typically attack two enemies with Scorching Burst, then its just like you're attacking with a power that deals 2d6+int+int damage at level 1 with an at will power. With an 18 intelligence that averages 15 damage times your chance of hitting.

Feel free to do the math yourself if you like. The wizard's typical damage output with his area of effects is in the ballpark of the strikers. They have more knockout power than he does because they do all their damage to one target, but the wizard is certainly up to par.

The wizard isn't just about minion killing. He's also about softening up the battlefield. Everything goes better when someone in the party shaves off 20% of your enemies' hit points before the battle is even joined.

 

[Ander00]

And I leave you with this scenario.

Arcane reach doesn't work this way. It changes the origin square of the power, not where you are considered to be, so in this example, given these positions, the slaad would not even be pushed into the wall once, much less three times.


cheers

 

[Mistwell]

Oh for goodness sake.

The damage for the cleric's best ranged at will is 1d8+wis+implement.

The damage for the wizard's best ranged at will is A*(1d6+int+implement), where A is equal to the number of targets caught in the blast zone.

If A>1, then the wizard exceeds the cleric's damage.

Actually technically a Cloud of Daggers on a whole bunch of tiny creatures occupying the same space would do more damage A*(1d6+Int+Wis+Implement), and could even last a second round with an orb, and serve as more damage against anything pushed back into it.

 

[Sadrik]

That's a feature, not a bug.

Oh, ok.

In KotS there is a 108HP goblin. Not to mention the others there too (10 minions, 3 shield dudes, a wizard guy, and some skirmishers). This right after, literally the next room after, another big encounter.
Hitting him for 1d6 damage is a joke.

We had TPK twice on that encounter (except for my rogue that ran away). The DM had some of the characters get knocked out and captured. They escaped, then we went back for revenge and died again. Only on the third try did we wipe them out.

I have played that encounter in two groups and it has taken 4+ hours for each group to finish. The first time I thought it was a bug because we had 8 and the DM threw in some more baddies. I told the other DM about my experience, so he instituted a 6 seconds to act or you are delaying rule and it still took 4+ hours. I think that is also a feature.

Feel free to do the math yourself if you like.

Hit two at 50% means that you hit one for 1d6+INT. By the way, you are still doing that at 20th level too, the only difference is you have to fight monsters with 300-400+ HP with a 50% chance to hit, still.

The wizard's typical damage output with his area of effects is in the ballpark of the strikers.

I understand where you are getting that but in actual play it is not realized. The potential is there, however, strikers also have an excellent chance to hit in addition to their excellent damage. Rogue especially (20 DEX, +4 w/ dagger, +2 combat advantage = +11 to hit with one attack for 1d4+2d6+5). Ranger, pretty good too (20 DEX, +3 w/ bow = +8 to hit with two attacks for 2d10+1d6)

Everything goes better when someone in the party shaves off 20% of your enemies' hit points before the battle is even joined.

Play the Wizard! He will slowly shave the enemies down when you hit.

 

[Cadfan]

In KotS there is a 108HP goblin. Not to mention the others there too (10 minions, 3 shield dudes, a wizard guy, and some skirmishers). This right after literally the next room after another big encounter.
Hitting him for 1d6 damage is a joke.

Are you intentionally misunderstanding? I've been quite clear- the wizard's ability to do high damage is based on his ability to hit multiple targets.

The point is not that the wizard is equal to the strikers in damage versus one enemy. The point is that the wizard is equal to the strikers in damage versus several enemies, and comes equipped with many ways to attack several enemies at one time.

For what its worth, my group did not have meaningful problems with Irontooth, and the fight didn't take very long. But we have a remarkably well balanced group of PCs (1 defender, 2 melee strikers, 1 leader, 1 controller), and are a pretty coordinated team. We may also have gotten a little bit lucky on die rolls- we blinded him for one round, then weakened him the next, allowing the rogue and ranger to do some serious damage without taking too much damage.

 

[Mistwell]

Oh, ok.

In KotS there is a 108HP goblin.

That is not a target for a wizard's at-will powers. That is a target that clearly calls for a daily power, like Sleep.

 

[Sadrik]

Are you intentionally misunderstanding? I've been quite clear- the wizard's ability to do high damage is based on his ability to hit multiple targets.

I am not misunderstanding. You might be because I said this.

Hit two at 50% means that you hit one for 1d6+INT.

So, that means that in actual play the potential to roll well and hit both is there but the reality is that statistically you are going to hit one of them and do 1d6 damage to the 30+ HP critter.

So to sum up. His ability to do damage to multiple targets hinges on him hitting. If he is hitting 50% of the time he needs to capture 4 guys in the blast to do double damage.

 

[Cadfan]

So to sum up. His ability to do damage to multiple targets hinges on him hitting. If he is hitting 50% of the time he needs to capture 4 guys in the blast to do double damage.

Right... and the same reasoning applies to every single class in the game. Every class has to hit to deal damage. What's your point?

My point stands. Calculating damage from Scorching Burst on the assumption that you're going to be attacking only one enemy is unreasonable. It defeats the whole purpose of a class centered around area of effect attacks. You might as well argue about the damage output of a Rogue who inexplicably never gets to sneak attack anyone.