D&D General The Grid vs. Theater of the Mind vs. a Mix [a poll & discussion]

[Lyxen]

Prior to 3e, my groups were almost always TotM (grid only for complex situations). Starting with 3e, however, that flipped and the grid took over for most combat. Nowadays, I play on on a VTT (Foundry, FTW), so it's all grid all the time.

I don't know why that corollary of "VTT implies Grid" is put forward all the time. On the contrary, while a VTT expects a map, it's the perfect medium to get rid of the grid, since you can easily measure distances and look at templates of areas of effect, positioned any way you want. Even if we prefer TotM, when we use a map on a VTT, we do that without a grid.

Foundry is however a bit of a special case, contrary to for example Roll20 who has two distinct modes with and without grid, Foundry is by default with a grid and you need to apply a modifier during your move to dissociate yourself from the grid, a design that I don't like as it favours the grid too much (but probably goes to show that users are probably using a grid most of the time).

 

[pogre]

We use miniatures and scenery, but do not use a grid (mostly). I never use a lined grid or mat to draw scenes on - I always use terrain. Some of that terrain comes with a grid - like master maze from Dwarven Forge or some of the pieces I build with Hirst Arts, or a few of the 3d printed pieces we use. We convert everything to inches of movement and use tape measures or measuring sticks. Particularly for outdoor scenes, I appreciate the aesthetic scene of no grid lines visible. In the last few years I have also incorporated a lot more elevation into my scenes.

I try to depict everything in the scene in 3d. However, I sometimes have to use a stand-in like this half-column actually represents a small dais, that kind of thing.

I sometimes build opening scenes before the players arrive, but generally, I do not build scenes ahead of time. I have the luxury of a big game room with my terrain and miniatures surrounding the table in cabinets. Sometimes with the help of my players I can assemble scenes very quickly - usually more quickly than DMs I have played with who draw on a grid.

We build the dungeon as it is explored.

We do use minis for non-combat situations.

Running fights through the city are done using city buildings and a "rolling" scene where when a miniature leaves one edge of the table they emerge on the other edge. When the party splits up I handle it either by constructing a scene on another game table or dividing the big table between the two scenes.

I may sound elitist, but please understand - I absolutely would not play this way without a dedicated gaming space. If I had to travel for a game I would certainly use a gaming grid and markers and I am sure it would work great. I don't think I could give up minis though. It also helps that I have been painting and collecting scenery and miniatures for over 40 years. I am pretty much out of space, but I keep cranking stuff out.

Earlier during lockdown we used Zoom and I had a camera (phone) set up on a tripod to capture scenes. It had the added advantage of allowing me to frame a scene in the picture. However, I much, much prefer in-person gaming. I found running games over two hours on Zoom pretty exhausting.

Interestingly, I run a Traveller game for myfar flung friends on Zoom and it is almost entirely ToTM.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Theater of the Mind for social and minor combative encounters. Map and minis for more significant exploration and substantive combats. Break out 3D printed and crafted terrain for the major encounters. This could be a big fight or some timer-limited exploration.

I don't have as much stuff as Pogre, but I find a lot of frustration mapping out a city scape for a chase or fight. If I don't there is a lot of confusion as to where people are. I hope to have soon some printed houses and streets to just drop down on the table to save me that effort of sketching out roads and allyways.

 

[BrokenTwin]

My group tends to use minis, but rarely a grind. Usually just a quick doodle on a sheet of paper so people can track roughly where everything is. I find the more detailed a map gets, the less improv my players tend to engage in. I've been meaning to try a battlemap without a grid and ruler/eyeball movement (ala Warhammer), but I don't currently have the time or interest in developing battle maps that complex. Maybe if we shift over to VTTs I'll give it a try.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

As I said earlier I don't use minis with RPGs, I use tokens. If I used miniatures with D&D I would get a WYSIWYG OCD and would want them to be perfect. And I would need an insanely large collection and I still would be limited by it. In a RPG I want to be able to introduce whatever I want, and I want players to be able to imagine things I describe, and not have their imagination to be influenced by a possibly incorrect looking miniature. So I like to use these sort of symbolic tokens that are hopefully evocative but not representative.

There are couple of pics more on my Instagram. (Along with my art and, yes pics of miniatures, but those are for 40K.)

 

[Maxperson]

I have to say. I discovered the other day that I've completely lost my ability to DM theater of the mind. The game was at my house and the player with the figures forgot them and the map, so I had to describe combats old school. I struggled to explain positioning and the players struggled to understand. When I played 1e and 2e, we use theater of the mind almost exclusively, only pulling out dice or figures to show position if it got too complex. We have used figures and maps exclusively since 3e and I've lost my theater of the mind skill. It was kind of unsettling to discover that I've lost a skill that I used to have.

 

[Lyxen]

I have to say. I discovered the other day that I've completely lost my ability to DM theater of the mind. The game was at my house and the player with the figures forgot them and the map, so I had to describe combats old school. I struggled to explain positioning and the players struggled to understand. When I played 1e and 2e, we use theater of the mind almost exclusively, only pulling out dice or figures to show position if it got too complex. We have used figures and maps exclusively since 3e and I've lost my theater of the mind skill. It was kind of unsettling to discover that I've lost a skill that I used to have.

So that you do not beat yourself too hard, are you sure that it's only you ? Are you players familiar with the concept, played it the same as you did before 3e ?

Because the problem that I've found (and it took us a bit of correcting at the start) is that nowadays players who either have only seen grids or who have forgotten that everything does not need to be that precise are actually not inclined to make the mental effort of visualisation, or are afraid to make a decision based on only their own mental picture, just in case they have missed something. I'm not criticising, but it's an age where pictures and maps are readily available and beautiful, and I think that people expect them as a medium to convey a large part of the situation.

When we realised that, we talked about it, decided that we could still do it and we did go back to TotM without much trouble, apart from the occasional powergamer wanting to optimise everything down to the last inch...

 

[Maxperson]

So that you do not beat yourself too hard, are you sure that it's only you ? Are you players familiar with the concept, played it the same as you did before 3e ?

Only one did. Been playing with him since 1984. The other three never played that way. In any case, I still struggled with conveying positioning. There were definite issues on both sides.

Because the problem that I've found (and it took us a bit of correcting at the start) is that nowadays players who either have only seen grids or who have forgotten that everything does not need to be that precise are actually not inclined to make the mental effort of visualisation, or are afraid to make a decision based on only their own mental picture, just in case they have missed something. I'm not criticising, but it's an age where pictures and maps are readily available and beautiful, and I think that people expect them as a medium to convey a large part of the situation.

I can see, er, visualize this.

When we realised that, we talked about it, decided that we could still do it and we did go back to TotM without much trouble, apart from the occasional powergamer wanting to optimise everything down to the last inch...

That could be part of it. I have one guy who loves to optimize his stuff, and one other player who isn't the optimizer, but has a personality where he likes to know everything in detail in order to make a decision. Takes him for-ever to take turns in conventional games like Terraforming Mars as he analyzes every possible move before taking his turn. Both of those guys would have troubles no matter what, I think. The guy I have been playing with since 1984 and his son both prioritize RP over everything else, so the transition for them would not be difficult.

 

[BrokenTwin]

@Crimson Longinus : Just have to say, those maps and tokens are amazing looking. I didn't even see the grid at first. What do you use to create your maps?

Edit: Started looking through your instagram. Goddamn.

 

[Lyxen]

Only one did. Been playing with him since 1984. The other three never played that way. In any case, I still struggled with conveying positioning. There were definite issues on both sides.

Just wanted to let you know you were not the only one with the trouble, and that understanding a situation in an RPG is a shared responsibility between the DM and the players.

I can see, er, visualize this.

That could be part of it. I have one guy who loves to optimize his stuff, and one other player who isn't the optimizer, but has a personality where he likes to know everything in detail in order to make a decision. Takes him for-ever to take turns in conventional games like Terraforming Mars as he analyzes every possible move before taking his turn. Both of those guys would have troubles no matter what, I think.

I'm pretty sure of it, the fluffiness of the description will make them uncomfortable no matter what, they want to reassure themselves that they are not missing something. What we've found is that the best way to tackle this is to use it on very simple cases first, where it's more or less one on one for each of the player, but even then, there will be players asking about area of effect, and wanting to run to another fight or whatever.

The guy I have been playing with since 1984 and his son both prioritize RP over everything else, so the transition for them would not be difficult.

Yep, that kind of people would be our best candidates, for the others, it would have to be progressive.