D&D (2024) The Half Orc. Are they still needed?

[Faolyn]

Okay. So first there's no pressure. Now there is pressure but it isn't different or noteworthy? It's okay if your opinion changes, mine changes on occasion, but you're kind of shifting the goalposts on me here. It's noteworthy because Tasha's represents the most radical change in how PC races are handled in the last 30 years. It's noteworthy because it's going to be the default assumption for how race is handled if it isn't already.

You're assuming that there's "special" pressure to use Tasha's or whatever rules exist.

There isn't. Just the standard amount you get when players find something shiny and new. If your players find a new archetype from a third party source that they want to play, do you consider that to be pressure? Are your players like really toxic about forcing you to acquiesce to their demands or something?

There is absolutely nothing forcing you to use any particular rules at your table. You are free to allow Tasha's or disallow it. You are free to allow the races in MMotM or disallow it. If you don't like the way you think 5e is heading, you are free to come up with your own house rules, play any other edition of D&D, or move to Level Up, Pathfinder, or any other of the thousands of other RPGs out there.

Literally all the rules are optional. Even if 6e comes out and the Tasha's rule is the norm--which I hope not; I love floating ASIs but I find the way they did the customizable lineages to be incredibly boring--you can still say "nope, sorry, in my game, you use these rules" and hand them binder or house rules.

Don't be surprised if not everyone likes that and wants to play with you as DM--unless you consider that to be "pressure."

Seriously, I have to wonder if people put up this much of a fuss when suddenly non-humans didn't have level limits and could join classes that were previously forbidden to them. Dwarf wizards and half-orc paladins! I'd consider that to be a much more radical change than letting you stick a +2 in a different stat, or even the build-your-own-race thing, since opening up all classes to all races truly broke down what it meant to be a member of a race.

 

[Faolyn]

That's a fair point, but we have a lot of examples of races that don't seem able to interbreed. Like you can have half-human half-just about anything, but no elf-dwarves or gnome-halflings?

Probably because nobody bothered to stat them out, rather than any grand plan on anyone's part.

 

[Charlaquin]

Yep, MTG setting, but still an official D&D product.

Theros features humans and a handful of non-core races: centaurs, leonin, minotaurs, satyrs, and tritons. Of the lot, tritons were the only D&D-originating race to appear, although MTG centaurs and minotaurs had previously appeared in Ravnica. (Centaurs, minotaurs, and satyrs have since appeared in their D&D incarnations in MOTM, but leonin remain unique to Theros.)

Also worth noting that MTG’s merfolk are basically Tritons.

 

[Charlaquin]

However, I do always find it odd that people insist that because we have half-orcs that orcs and humans must be related species. It's a world of magic, one where we have hybrids of humans and horses, humans and bulls. Not to mention the monstrous mixes of completely unrelated species. I don't assume genetics works the same way in a world where someone can twiddle their fingers and cause a ball of fire to appear.

I don’t think that the existence of half-orcs necessarily means humans and orcs have to be related species; ditto for half-elves (and in fact elves’ fae ancestry would seem to suggest they are not related to humans at all). However, if they aren’t related, it does raise the question of why there are half-human-half-orcs (and half-human-half-elves) but not other half-and-half combinations.

There are basically two solutions to this: either there are other half-and-half combinations, in which case there should be some way to make PC stats for them, or there’s something special about humans, orcs, and elves that makes them more sexually compatible than other races. The related species thing is simply one possible answer to this. Another is the size difference thing I jokingly brought up earlier in the thread.

I think the custom lineage option from Tasha’s does present a handy way to make your own half-dwarf-half-dragonborn or whatever.

 

[MGibster]

You're assuming that there's "special" pressure to use Tasha's or whatever rules exist.

I don't know where you got that impression from. I originally mentioned that there's pressure to allow players to use officially published material from WotC. I guess that's special in a way.

There isn't. Just the standard amount you get when players find something shiny and new. If your players find a new archetype from a third party source that they want to play, do you consider that to be pressure? Are your players like really toxic about forcing you to acquiesce to their demands or something?

Yes it's pressure. Though significantly less because I couldn't care less about third party publishers and feel no need to consider adding any of their material to the game. Nor do I see this as a player toxicity issue.

There is absolutely nothing forcing you to use any particular rules at your table. You are free to allow Tasha's or disallow it. You are free to allow the races in MMotM or disallow it. If you don't like the way you think 5e is heading, you are free to come up with your own house rules, play any other edition of D&D, or move to Level Up, Pathfinder, or any other of the thousands of other RPGs out there.

Nobody said anything about force. And yes, I'm well aware that I'm "free" to do whatever I want.

Literally all the rules are optional. Even if 6e comes out and the Tasha's rule is the norm--which I hope not; I love floating ASIs but I find the way they did the customizable lineages to be incredibly boring--you can still say "nope, sorry, in my game, you use these rules" and hand them binder or house rules.

Saying literally all the rules are optional is technically true but not very useful. One of the reasons D&D is so popular is that it offers a common set of rules. I can sit down with almost anyone else in the United States for a game of D&D and we're all going to be pretty close to the same page. Sure, I can say "nope, sorry, in my game we use these rules," but I'm not going to. Rarely do I deviate from the standard rules in any game I run.

Seriously, I have to wonder if people put up this much of a fuss when suddenly non-humans didn't have level limits and could join classes that were previously forbidden to them.

In my experience, most people ignored level limits in 1st edition. I don't even remember if they had level limits in 2nd.

 

[JEB]

I don't even remember if they had level limits in 2nd.

Yep, they did. Slightly more generous than 1E, but they did.

 

[Faolyn]

I don't know where you got that impression from. I originally mentioned that there's pressure to allow players to use officially published material from WotC. I guess that's special in a way.

You consider it to be pressure. Why do you feel pressured to include the material, instead of just saying that you won't?

Yes it's pressure. Though significantly less because I couldn't care less about third party publishers and feel no need to consider adding any of their material to the game. Nor do I see this as a player toxicity issue.

You have a very different definition of "pressure" than I do, if having a player say "hey, I want to play such-and-such" puts pressure on you.

Nobody said anything about force. And yes, I'm well aware that I'm "free" to do whatever I want.


Saying literally all the rules are optional is technically true but not very useful. One of the reasons D&D is so popular is that it offers a common set of rules. I can sit down with almost anyone else in the United States for a game of D&D and we're all going to be pretty close to the same page. Sure, I can say "nope, sorry, in my game we use these rules," but I'm not going to. Rarely do I deviate from the standard rules in any game I run.

It's actually incredibly useful. Because it allows you to say "I don't like this rule so I changed it."

Are you saying "everyone else does it so I have to as well?"

If I sat down at a stranger's table, I would expect different house rules and a different set of expectations than what happens in my game. I wouldn't be surprised if a strange DM said that they had different rules.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don’t think that the existence of half-orcs necessarily means humans and orcs have to be related species; ditto for half-elves (and in fact elves’ fae ancestry would seem to suggest they are not related to humans at all). However, if they aren’t related, it does raise the question of why there are half-human-half-orcs (and half-human-half-elves) but not other half-and-half combinations.

There are basically two solutions to this: either there are other half-and-half combinations, in which case there should be some way to make PC stats for them, or there’s something special about humans, orcs, and elves that makes them more sexually compatible than other races. The related species thing is simply one possible answer to this. Another is the size difference thing I jokingly brought up earlier in the thread.

I think the custom lineage option from Tasha’s does present a handy way to make your own half-dwarf-half-dragonborn or whatever.

One explanation that I've kind of liked is that there is nothing special at all about orcs and elves.

It is humans that are special.

This was based off a meme post I read years ago, Wish I could find the original, but it went something like

Human and a fantasy race person were talking, and the subject of humans being weirdly attracted to like... everything came up.
Human denies.

"Half-elves, half-orcs, half-dwarves, half-dragons..."
"Okay, but-"
"Centuars, Satyrs, Mermaids, Naga..."
"You've made your-"
"Half-Golems."


And I've always liked the idea that there is some truth in that. There is precedent in dragons, so why not have humans just be capable of having off-spring with just about anything. I find it an amusing conceit.

 

[Charlaquin]

One explanation that I've kind of liked is that there is nothing special at all about orcs and elves.

It is humans that are special.

This was based off a meme post I read years ago, Wish I could find the original, but it went something like

Human and a fantasy race person were talking, and the subject of humans being weirdly attracted to like... everything came up.
Human denies.

"Half-elves, half-orcs, half-dwarves, half-dragons..."
"Okay, but-"
"Centuars, Satyrs, Mermaids, Naga..."
"You've made your-"
"Half-Golems."


And I've always liked the idea that there is some truth in that. There is precedent in dragons, so why not have humans just be capable of having off-spring with just about anything. I find it an amusing conceit.

Yeah, I’ve heard similar and I rather like it. Fits in with humans’ shtick being that they’re adaptable too, which I appreciate. But it does still make for a conspicuous lack of half-whatevers. Half-gnomes, half-goblins, half-halflings (quarterlings?)

I suppose you could adapt existing races. Halflings are half-human-half-dwarf, Hobgoblins are half-human-half-goblin, etc.

 

[MGibster]

You consider it to be pressure. Why do you feel pressured to include the material, instead of just saying that you won't?

Because a game is a shared experience and my needs and desires aren't the only ones I consider, I'm more of a consensus builder than I am a "my way or the highway" type, and and I empathize with players whom I feel have a reasonable expectation that they're able to use official products they've purchased.

You have a very different definition of "pressure" than I do, if having a player say "hey, I want to play such-and-such" puts pressure on you.

More specifically, it's a form of peer pressure. I'm not arguing that it's nefarious or anything, but it is pressure.

f I sat down at a stranger's table, I would expect different house rules and a different set of expectations than what happens in my game. I wouldn't be surprised if a strange DM said that they had different rules.

In my experience, when I sit down to play D&D with a bunch of strangers we're largely in agreement on how the rules work. There might be some rules interpretations and houserules I'm unaccustomed to, but they've always been minor.