The way you formulated that IS consistent and logical...healing based on HS VALUE is cool by me as long as the magic doesn't require the target to actually have an unused HS.
The Healing Paradox
The way you formulated that IS consistent and logical...healing based on HS VALUE is cool by me as long as the magic doesn't require the target to actually have an unused HS.
Stacie GmrGrl
Adventurer
Why does D&D have this Healing Paradox when so many other RPGs do not, and why is it such a difficulty for some reason to fix it?
That is something that has always puzzled me.
That is something that has always puzzled me.
Tony Vargas
Legend
In genre, major characters rarely take serious/lasting wounds - when they do, it's part of the drama, the heroic struggle against adversity. D&D models that with 'hit points' that act like ablative plot-armor, keeping you from taking serious wounds even though you reasonably should be. Other games model the same thing by making PCs very hard to hit, or giving them defenses that reduce serious damage, or 'soak rolls, or various get-out-of-death-free cards that they can use up, and go on to model more serious wounds with wound penalties.
Another thing that happens in genre is that protagonists face large numbers of enemies that they can individually handle pretty well, but at some point decide "there's too many of them!" and try to get away. I've never seen an RPG handle that really well, but D&D does partially pull it off with hps, because when your hps are low, even though you haven't been 'really' hurt, yet, you know you're in trouble. Other games have a more 'brittle' form of plot armor, and by the time that lucky shot hits you or gets through your defenses, you're taking wound penalties, and getting away or rallying becomes very difficult (worst case, you end up in a death spiral, where the wound penalty makes you more vulnerable, so you get wounded again, which makes you more vulnerable...).
So, I'd say D&D has the weirdness of hps to model the weirdness of genre-convention that says protagonists don't die random un-dramatic deaths nor even take random un-dramatic wounds, commonly called 'plot armor' by fandom.
The healing paradox is that hit points are a dramatic-system model that become a managed resource, so players playing 'to win' are careful with them, and make decisions based on optimizing their chances of success. Which means if there's unlimited healing available - whether that be by taking an extended rest, draining a magic wand that one of the PCs made at a steep discount, or whatever - they're going to use it.
I made the point on the last page that classic D&D healing was never that consistent or realistic in the first place, it's just become familiar. Healing surges addressed both dramatic/genre-faithfulness and consistency/play-balance issues that had been with the game for a long time. The only thing 'wrong' with it is that it's not familiar, it's not how healing had always been done before.
Another problem D&D has always had - and still had in 4e - was trouble holding together in low-fantasy, low-magic, no-magic, or 'gritty' modes of play. Hit points and the systematic, renewable nature of clerical healing were a huge part of that. In a regular game, or even a low-magic (item) game that allowed casters, healing was a matter of cleric spells, long-term healing was a matter of the cleric taking a day or few to prep nothing but healing spells. The extremely slow rates of 'natural healing' (even when no serious wounds were involved, as was the case if no one was dropped below 0) made non-magic modes of play impractical, and still failed to be 'gritty' since there was no way of modeling serious, long-term wounds, other than being terribly easy to kill due to low hps.
Taking the 4e model, and adding an optional 'wound tracking' system using the disease track as a model could have finally addressed that, as well.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
The Healing Paradox exists because it is a Sacred Cow to not add any complexity to the Hit Point system. It is an easily solvable problem as game design issues go. But it is an impossible problem to solve to everyone's satisfaction at zero cost.
There were once many D&D-like systems that had mechanical additions that addressed directly these criticisms of healing in a HP-based system.
For example, Chivalry & Sorcery (published 1977) divided your HP in roughly half Body Points and half Fatigue Points. FPs ablate first (unless you suffered a critical hit) and could all come back very quickly with rest. BPs come back at a more or less realistic rate.
One the down side, it added a bit of added complexity. On the positive side it pretty much solves the main concerns of everyone. Yes, it is possible to do some adventuring without a Cleric. Yes, almost dying is a bad idea that will inconvenience you if you do not have healing magic handy. Yes, crits can be a sudden nasty surprise, without necessarily having a death spiral mechanic.
There were once many D&D-like systems that had mechanical additions that addressed directly these criticisms of healing in a HP-based system.
For example, Chivalry & Sorcery (published 1977) divided your HP in roughly half Body Points and half Fatigue Points. FPs ablate first (unless you suffered a critical hit) and could all come back very quickly with rest. BPs come back at a more or less realistic rate.
One the down side, it added a bit of added complexity. On the positive side it pretty much solves the main concerns of everyone. Yes, it is possible to do some adventuring without a Cleric. Yes, almost dying is a bad idea that will inconvenience you if you do not have healing magic handy. Yes, crits can be a sudden nasty surprise, without necessarily having a death spiral mechanic.
Stacie GmrGrl
Adventurer
Yeah... it really makes the game NOT fun.
Maybe this could be a Sacred Cow to get rid of... doubt it, but it would be neat if they did. But, I am probably a minority on this.
Maybe this could be a Sacred Cow to get rid of... doubt it, but it would be neat if they did. But, I am probably a minority on this.
Its simply dnds model, but other RPGs have their own issues.
For example, in Savage Worlds, every game I've been in the bennie supply made a huge difference in survivability. If the DM was stingie with bennies we would go down quick, more plentiful and we could take on much stronger fights.
If you are attempting to solve it strictly from a mechanical standpoint I agree. But game design has to involve flavor concerns as well, and that is a much more difficult issue.
Creating a mechanic that works and that people like is a tough thing, as the 100+ pages of healing arguments on the forum demonstrates.
Campbell
Relaxed Intensity
A core issue with D&D's combat system is that misses are not mechanically interesting. This is because D&D assumes passive defense so a character gives nothing up to avoid attacks. The benefit of this is that combat is quicker to resolve because individual attacks take far less time to resolve. The problem with it becomes that more attacks succeed than reasonably would which leads to hp occupying such a large conceptual space. It doesn't help that the game uses process simulation rules for the recovery of what is largely a meta resource.
Other games separate out their process simulation from their meta resources. Of course that brings issues of its own. Namely it slams the meta element directly in the players' faces. For some this is preferable, but it can distract some who prefer one to one correspondence between player and character decisions. Personally I find that correspondence in D&D pretty weak largely due to the nature of hit points partially representing character skill, fatigue, and luck. Player decisions based on how many hit points they have left seem a little nonsensical to me. "I can see my skill/luck is low. I need to sleep for a couple days or have this priest traveling with me restore my skill in battle."
To each their own though.
Other games separate out their process simulation from their meta resources. Of course that brings issues of its own. Namely it slams the meta element directly in the players' faces. For some this is preferable, but it can distract some who prefer one to one correspondence between player and character decisions. Personally I find that correspondence in D&D pretty weak largely due to the nature of hit points partially representing character skill, fatigue, and luck. Player decisions based on how many hit points they have left seem a little nonsensical to me. "I can see my skill/luck is low. I need to sleep for a couple days or have this priest traveling with me restore my skill in battle."
To each their own though.
Herremann the Wise
First Post
My solution to the paradox:
1) Retain the definition of hit points (luck, divine providence, skill, capacity to turn a serious blow into a less serious one, fatigue, morale, will to go on, toughness, etc.) but,
2) Strip out wounds and more serious forms of physical damage.
3) Hit points are easily and quickly restored, always acting as a buffer.
4) Wounds take longer to heal and are expected to be treated through mundane means (but because hit points are still restored, there is always a buffer there).
5) Wounds may also lightly penalize certain actions but there should be a mechanic where on rare occasions, any penalties can be momentarily ignored.
6) Divine healing that heals wounds typically takes time and can be expensive. It is a resource to be carefully managed and typically cannot be spammed.
Because of this, the adventuring expectation is that as long as the PCs are not incapacitated from their wounds, divine healing is not required. It is expected that from day to day, PCs are typically going to be carrying a couple of wound points worth of physical damage that is on the mend.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
1) Retain the definition of hit points (luck, divine providence, skill, capacity to turn a serious blow into a less serious one, fatigue, morale, will to go on, toughness, etc.) but,
2) Strip out wounds and more serious forms of physical damage.
3) Hit points are easily and quickly restored, always acting as a buffer.
4) Wounds take longer to heal and are expected to be treated through mundane means (but because hit points are still restored, there is always a buffer there).
5) Wounds may also lightly penalize certain actions but there should be a mechanic where on rare occasions, any penalties can be momentarily ignored.
6) Divine healing that heals wounds typically takes time and can be expensive. It is a resource to be carefully managed and typically cannot be spammed.
Because of this, the adventuring expectation is that as long as the PCs are not incapacitated from their wounds, divine healing is not required. It is expected that from day to day, PCs are typically going to be carrying a couple of wound points worth of physical damage that is on the mend.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
fenriswolf456
First Post
I could certainly get behind something like this. It would let criticals be more mechanically interesting than "just a lot of damage" and better reflect that a solid, deadly hit has been inflicted.
More importantly, I think it would be a good comprimise between the HP camps. One issue would be the initial ratio between Fatigue/Body points, though a dial could easily be implemented, as well as the growth of the two pools during levelling.
Something I'm going to ponder over, to see about including in my current campaign.
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