The Healing Paradox

[ren1999]

How about experience points for killing monsters
and
experience points for meeting a goal even avoiding killing monsters
and
completing skill challenges

that goal could be getting treasure or information
rescuing someone
negotiating something

 

[jadrax]

I don't see it as that. AC is the threshold it takes to actually make physical contact, not to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. Meeting or beating AC means you make physical contact, and HP/damage is a measure of how solid the contact is.

This clearly cannot be the case because Armour adds to AC.

 

[Mercutio01]

This clearly cannot be the case because Armour adds to AC.

Yeah, and when you hit, you bypass the armor, correct? It means that even with the armor on, you still make contact with the person under the armor. Whether it's something like hitting at a joint, breaking through a link in the mail, stabbing through the leather or padding, etc.

I'm not seeing the objection to the idea that AC is a threshold for making contact. And your point doesn't seem to negate mine at all. Am I missing something?

 

[jadrax]

I'm not seeing the objection to the idea that AC is a threshold for making contact. And your point doesn't seem to negate mine at all. Am I missing something?

Ah, so you mean actual contact with flesh rather than just contact.

OK, I can kind of see where your are coming from here.

 

[fenriswolf456]

Which makes me ask: why do we need a hp mechanism in addition to AC - because AC also represents the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one?

I've always considered it the attacker's skill/luck/fate to hit AC, while the defender's skill/luck/fate is wrapped up in HP.

 

[Mercutio01]

Ah, so you mean actual contact with flesh rather than just contact.

OK, I can kind of see where your are coming from here.

Yeah, because I narrate some misses as being deflected off of armor or shields (like if it hits touch AC but not Armor) and generally a complete miss that doesn't even come close misses even the Touch AC.

 

[pemerton]

Falling is a weird case that doesn't satisfy any model that I'm aware of (do Vitality/Wounds systems address falling better? I hadn't noticed any specifics dealing with it.).

Roger Musson, in "How to Lose Hit Points and Survive" (White Dwarf c 1980, the frst V/W system I know of) addressed fireballs and dragon breath (deliver Wounds unless you save), awareness (surprise, rear attacks, stones dropped on people, etc all deal automatic Wounds) and fatigue (moving a heavy rock might suck hp), etc. I don't think he discusses falling damage, but the implication of his sytem is that it should do Wound damage.

I suppose if you had to boil it down, it's that I still adhere most to "HP is a mix" and every hit that does damage is also a mix. I think in all honesty, that's where I diverge with HP is Fate people. Every hit that does damage is represented by the loss of HP that is a mix of all the different elements. I don't see a tier with some HP only being fate points and some only being meat.

I agree with you that there are not tiers. Each hp is potentially a mix. But where I think I differ from you is that I think that any single hp, when lost, might be a mix, or just fate, or just physical injury, depending on context and consequence.

 

[Mercutio01]

Roger Musson, in "How to Lose Hit Points and Survive" (White Dwarf c 1980, the frst V/W system I know of) addressed fireballs and dragon breath (deliver Wounds unless you save), awareness (surprise, rear attacks, stones dropped on people, etc all deal automatic Wounds) and fatigue (moving a heavy rock might suck hp), etc. I don't think he discusses falling damage, but the implication of his sytem is that it should do Wound damage.

Thanks. I'll have to look that one up to read about it. That sort of makes sense, really. I know falling damage is the one standout that I think everyone looks at askance.

I agree with you that there are not tiers. Each hp is potentially a mix. But where I think I differ from you is that I think that any single hp, when lost, might be a mix, or just fate, or just physical injury, depending on context and consequence.

I think my perspective comes from the fact that really the first system I DMed was 2E (although I played 1E and BD&D) and that's where I think I probably internalized hits and damage, which stayed with me for all these years later, and that is potentially why my playstyle differs from yours.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

To answer your question: It isn't necessary to deplete HP. My example was for illustrative purposes, for the concept of attrition itself. Sir Henry's expeditions are a classic. I think you are arguing against the example rather than the concept of attrition.

Not so much arguing against the example, as taking it as a great example of strategic attrition that can be done well without relying on long-term HP attrition.

For strategic attrition, yes supplies matter, but there is also tactical attrition. Escaping from the headhunters cooking pot and running through the jungle over many days with headhunters chasing you like game, HP attrition works. Holing up in the tree bole during the rainstorm might give you some respite (a few hp) but not the whole enchilada (full hp).

This seems, to me, to be elegantly captured in the 5E rules in the difference between a short rest (which allows you to spend Hit Dice, which are limited) and a long rest (which gives you all your HP back and all of your Hit Dice back).

I know [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has posted great examples of how, during an overland pursuit / travel (?) run as a skill challenge, he tied the party's ability to gain an extended rest while in the bush to their progress through the skill challenge. It seems that a similar methodology would give a good result to the fleeing-from-cannibals challenge.

If you do well, you slip the pursuit long enough to gain an opportunity for a long rest; if you do not, you're constantly harried, never gaining the time and comfort needed, and you can only take a short rest. Thus, we get tactical attrition, as well.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I agree with you that there are not tiers. Each hp is potentially a mix. But where I think I differ from you is that I think that any single hp, when lost, might be a mix, or just fate, or just physical injury, depending on context and consequence.

This is how I've always run HP damage.