The help action is not broken, but Working together is

[5ekyu]

When this happens, I remind my players that "Bob already did his very best, and failed. If you do the same thing he just did, in the same way, you will get the same result he just got." This pushes the ball back into the player's court--they must either think of a new approach to the problem, or move on.

I want this printed on a t-shirt, so that I can wear it to my gaming sessions.

I take a similar but different approach.

I describe the dice toll for a skill check not as a judgement on the PC but on the circumstances.

Rolled a 3 on the search check? Lighting, debris, dust, excessive rot and fungus etc etc are hindering the search. You *know* it was not a good search. So, you dont have to think it's the best effort but the worst condition.

Which gets back to "so how do you change the conditions?"

That combined with the setback rule for failures does wonders for flavoring skill tasks.

 

[CleverNickName]

But, you know, I would still be tempted to buy one of those shirts.

How about this? I could change the color if people don't like it (I like orange...):

View attachment 104314

I'll take one! Long sleeved, please, in dark grey.

 

[CleverNickName]

“What do you mean it’s my best effort,? I clearly only rolled a 2 out of 20.”

Yeah, I've heard players say that at the table (almost a direct quote, actually.) But I always stand by my call. I think it's important for everyone to know that in this game (and in real life), you can be exceptional in your field, and put forth your best effort, AND do everything right, AND still fail. There will always be things outside of your control...and in D&D, they are represented by dice rolls.

To put it another way: your "best effort" is the proficiency bonus, ability bonus, and maybe Advantage. The dice roll is chance, circumstance, fate, the will of the gods, everything else.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I'll take one! Long sleeved, please, in dark grey.

Well, to print and ship them to me it is about $25 each...

 

[Charlaquin]

Yeah, I've heard players say that at the table (almost a direct quote, actually.) But I always stand by my call. I think it's important for everyone to know that in this game (and in real life), you can be exceptional in your field, and put forth your best effort, AND do everything right, AND still fail. There will always be things outside of your control...and in D&D, they are represented by dice rolls.

In real life you can try again though.

To put it another way: your "best effort" is the proficiency bonus, ability bonus, and maybe Advantage. The dice roll is chance, circumstance, fate, the will of the gods, everything else.

Sure, but then what is stopping me from trying again in the hopes that fate or whatever will be more in my favor this time?

 

[CleverNickName]

In real life you can try again though.

Indeed. But if you do the same thing you did before, the same way you just did it, you should expect the same result you just got.

Sure, but then what is stopping me from trying again in the hopes that fate or whatever will be more in my favor this time?

Me, the Dungeon Master. I speak for the Fates, and They have just told me that They want you guys to accept the fact that the dead-end tunnel really is a dead end, and that no matter how many people and untold hours of searching are employed, They will not let you find anything but cobwebs. So either cast a detect secret doors spell, or use percussion testing, or move on already! :-D

 

[Charlaquin]

Indeed. But if you do the same thing you did before, the same way you just did it, you should expect the same result you just got.

I thought you said the die roll represented the influence of luck, fate, etc? In which case, trying the same thing again might indeed yeild a different result because I got luckier.

Me, the Dungeon Master. I speak for the Fates, and They have just told me that They want you guys to accept the fact that the dead-end tunnel really is a dead end, and that no matter how many people and untold hours of searching are employed, They will not let you find anything but cobwebs. So either cast a detect secret doors spell, or use percussion testing, or move on already! :-D

So the die roll doesn’t really represent fate. Your fiat does, and by your fiat I only have a single X-in-20 chance to succeed. This is why “you only get to try once” is an unsatisfying solution. It feels like your success and failure is not in your character’s hands.

 

[CleverNickName]

Double post, sorry 'bout that.

 

[CleverNickName]

This is why “you only get to try once” is an unsatisfying solution.

I can accept that my solution would be unsatisfying for your gaming group. But at our table, everyone seems satisfied with the narrative method. My players love it when the streetwise bard knows something that the smarty-pants know-it-all wizard doesn't. Or when the rogue gets something wrong, and the monk gets a chance to show him up. "You're over-thinking it again, Bix. Look...just stuff a pebble under it there, and the pressure plate can't move. Trap disarmed!"

For the record, I never said "only try once." I don't mind retries. It's the whole "same person doing the same thing over and over again until it works" that I object to, because it's dull, it bogs the game down, and it makes bad rolls insignificant. By all means try again, but maybe try a different approach, or step aside and let someone else give it a shot.

(shrug) But to each their own.

 

[Charlaquin]

I can accept that my solution would be unsatisfying for your gaming group. But at our table, everyone seems satisfied with the narrative method.

Are they? It was you who said you’ve heard “clearly it doesn’t represent my character’s best effort, it’s only a 2 out of 20” almost directly quoted at your table before.

My players love it when the streetwise bard knows something that the smarty-pants know-it-all wizard doesn't. Or when the rogue gets something wrong, and the monk gets a chance to show him up. "You're over-thinking it again, Bix. Look...just stuff a pebble under it there, and the pressure plate can't move. Trap disarmed!"

I’m not seeing how these examples relate to what we were discussing.

For the record, I never said "only try once." I don't mind retries. It's the whole "same person doing the same thing over and over again until it works" that I object to, because it's dull, it bogs the game down, and it makes bad rolls insignificant. By all means try again, but maybe try a different approach, or step aside and let someone else give it a shot.

I mean, what I’m advocating here is specifically a way to avoid the same person doing the same thing over and over again until it works, without having to resort to the unsatisfying answer of “you can only roll once.” Attach a risk or cost to the attempt, and let the player decide for themselves if trying again is worth it or not. If there’s nothing risked, then it’s not a very interesting challenge in the first place and you might as well just let it succeed.

(shrug) But to each their own.

Indeed. If your players are ok with the “one roll represents your best effort” method, don’t let me stop you from running it that way.