the Hide skill - how do you beat it?

[Aaron2]

No problem, I can quote the point for you: You cannot realistically misunderstand this sentence except on purpose.

Assume a rogue is hiding in a bush. Another character failed a spot check. In the bush, bits of the rogue are exposed (otherwise he'd have total concealment). Those bits are visually detectable, the spotting character sees those bits, he just doesn't realize the bits are part of a hiding rogue. The hiding rogue can be seen, he just hasn't been yet. This is totally different from an invisible character where no bits are showing (since they are see-through bits). In other words, there in an unblocked line of sight between the two characters. You cannot make the case that the line of sight is blocked since the spotting character can see the rogue even if neither of the two characters moves just make making a Spot check.

Your quote from page 76 is right before the comment about being in a crowd "without being noticed". Its also right before the statement that "Total cover or total concealment obviates the need fro a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway." Thus, you only need to make a Hide check when someone can see you.

I find the logic that hiding -> unseen -> invisible is just too much of a stretch. The term "unseen" is only used in the SRD as a short-cut to refer to invisible creatures or creatures treated as if they were invisible due to darkness or a blinded opponent.

Answer this question then. If hidden character are invisible, why do invisible characters get a bonus to Hide checks?


Aaron

 

[Scion]

Personally, I dont care if the person is behind a bush, in the shadows, or standing right in front of you but is somehow overlooked. If you dont recognize something as a threat then it has a good chance of catching you offguard if it suddenly decides to be a threat.

Invisible creatures can be noticed and seen in various ways. A simple splot check can notice disturbances and yet it still allows the negative of the dex bonus.

If someone is hidden and not spotted then they are not noticed. In effect, and in pretty much every way that matters, they are effectively invisible. It doesnt really matter if the person can see them directly, if there are 300 people in front of you and you can see them all if one suddenly pops up with an AK out of no where and shots at someone they are going to be caught offguard without special training.

Successful hide makes one able to catch someone offguard and deny them their dex bonus unless they have some sort of ability which says no.

 

[Aaron2]

If someone is hidden and not spotted then they are not noticed. In effect, and in pretty much every way that matters, they are effectively invisible.

The problem with this reasoning is that being "invisible" automatically gives you +2 to hit and sneak attack damage. So, now I can do all sorts of silly things. Cast Blur on myself, Hide and stand in the open sneak attacking everyone (not to mention increasing my miss chance from 20% to 50%). Or, I can stand behind the party's dwarf, gain cover, Hide and sneak attack away. Better yet, I can buy a Cloak of Displacement and get sneak attacks 24/7. Yippee.


Aaron

 

[TheGogmagog]

Ignore post: referenced a senario that was discussed on previous page.

 

[Scion]

The problem with this reasoning is that being "invisible" automatically gives you +2 to hit and sneak attack damage. So, now I can do all sorts of silly things. Cast Blur on myself, Hide and stand in the open sneak attacking everyone

Only if you dont mind going against the RAW.

If you wish to make up strange rules that allow you to do so at any given time that is your own call, but dont make things up in order to find fault in something I said.

You cannot hide while being observed, so that particular tactic will pretty much never work.

If someone has an ability like hide in plain site then that is another matter entirely, but it isnt silly for such a powerful effect to be powerful now and then.

If you are hidden properly then that generates the same conditions as being invisible to a pretty high degree.

Also, as I said before, being invisible doesnt mean people cant spot you. There are a number of ways to do so, even just a simple spot check will allow someone to spot something inconsistant.

So, if we go by what some have said on this thread then even invisible people really shouldnt be able to sneak attack either going by that logic.

 

[Abraxas]

Well Scion pointed out the flaw with using blur, here are the problems with

Or, I can stand behind the party's dwarf, gain cover, Hide and sneak attack away.

PHB pg 151 "Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check."

and

Better yet, I can buy a Cloak of Displacement and get sneak attacks 24/7.

PHB pg 223 description of displacement "However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally."