D&D 5E The high-level play I'm hoping for.

[GMforPowergamers]

That's called GM fiat and does not apply here. Do you see that written in the PHB? Don't bother looking because you won't find it. You can stop at level 3 if you choose to do so. You are going to have to come up with a more compelling argument than that.

How about the fact that you can make a 32nd level orc shawman, a 31st level orc grand champion (both elite) and 5 different types of Orc minnons level 25-28 and still have PCs fight them at level 28 and be challenged...

it is easier then adding 23 HD or class levels, and faster... 4e BEATS 3e in scaleing with ease....

 

[Cadence]

That's called GM fiat and does not apply here. Do you see that written in the PHB? Don't bother looking because you won't find it.

I'm struggling with your definition of GM fiat.

Wouldn't GM fiat be telling the players, yeah, we're stopping at 15th level whether you like it or not. Discussing it with them ahead of time and reaching a consensus doesn't seem any more GM fiat than the GM saying the campaign world he wants to run doesn't have Gnomes in it.

I don't see what it has to do with being in the PHB vs. the DMG. (If being in the DMG but not PHB made something fiat, then most of 1e is GM fiat since so many of the basic rules are in the DMG and the players are expressly told not to look at it.)

 

[Sage Genesis]

That's called GM fiat and does not apply here. Do you see that written in the PHB? Don't bother looking because you won't find it. You can stop at level 3 if you choose to do so. You are going to have to come up with a more compelling argument than that.

No. Selecting details for the campaign out of the DMG is not part of the "everything is optional" mindset. (Which is the context in which you made the original statement.)

I'm also not sure what the PHB has to do with it. Campaign details are handled in the DMG. That's how D&D does things. In 3e you can find random treasure tables in the DMG, but they're not in the 3e PHB so I guess they're also not really part of the rules or something now?

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

Would having a chapter on E6, E9, E12, and E18 (or whatever) in the rule book, in addition to the 20+ set-up, be a good way of handling this? That way groups that don't want god killing can decide what their world looks like in terms of power structure, choose the appropriate epic level, and be able to keep playing when they get there without needing to retire. And the groups that want a ladder to heaven can do that too.

3rd edition had it spot on with keeping gods in a separate book. Personally, I wouldn't stat gods because these are the beings that are responsible to creation itself. Mortal beings should not ever be on the same playing field unless they have gained a source of divinity themselves.

 

[Cadence]

3rd edition had it spot on with keeping gods in a separate book. Personally, I wouldn't stat gods because these are the beings that are responsible to creation itself. Mortal beings should not ever be on the same playing field unless they have gained a source of divinity themselves.

A lot of myths and fiction have different levels of "gods" though. Aren't Balrogs in Tolkien of the order of the Maia (lesser or demi-gods) and yet killable by the elves? Fingolfin actually engaged Melkor (a Vala or greater god) in combat and injured him. But Iluvatar who had the actual creative power was on the outside. So, stat the Maia... and maybe stat the physical manifestations of the Vala? If demon lords are out, what about pit fiends? Succubi? Imps? Are greater titans out? Lesser ones? Storm giants?

Is separate section of the same book better because it introduces and begins to support more play styles with fewer purchases?

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

I'm struggling with your definition of GM fiat.

Wouldn't GM fiat be telling the players, yeah, we're stopping at 15th level whether you like it or not. Discussing it with them ahead of time and reaching a consensus doesn't seem any more GM fiat than the GM saying the campaign world he wants to run doesn't have Gnomes in it.

I don't see what it has to do with being in the PHB vs. the DMG. (If being in the DMG but not PHB made something fiat, then most of 1e is GM fiat since so many of the basic rules are in the DMG and the players are expressly told not to look at it.)

If you are changing the default then you are in the realm of GM fiat or even homebrew.

Do you understand that 4th edition goes to 30?

 

[Cadence]

If you are changing the default then you are in the realm of GM fiat or even homebrew.

The DMG core rule book apparently says: "You don’t have to take a campaign all the way to 30th level. Ending it at 10th or 20th level can be just as satisfying." The power to stop earlier is thus explicitly given to the GM as a completely specified choice in a core rule book - it therefore does not meet any definition of homebrew that I've ever seen. If the decisions is made in conjunction with the players (as is suggested in PF and seems a good policy in general) then it also doesn't seem to meet any definition of GM fiat I've ever seen.

Do you understand that 4th edition goes to 30?

I understand that it's written to allow advancement to 30th level with no modifications to the rules or extra work if that is the choice the GM and players decide to make.

 

[Wulfgar76]

I'm glad to see the Original Poster after being chastised by the mods, dissected by other posters and imploded by his own claims, has seen finally the light, admitted his error and taken a conciliatory tone.

Er, wait.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

I'm glad to see the Original Poster after being chastised by the mods, dissected by other posters and imploded by his own claims, has seen finally the light, admitted his error and taken a conciliatory tone.

Er, wait.

Might wanna get your facts straight before you make anymore wise ass comments.

 

[Halivar]

If you are changing the default then you are in the realm of GM fiat or even homebrew.

Do you understand that 4th edition goes to 30?

Err... not to pick a nit, but so does 3.5E. Check your DMG, page 206.