D&D 5E The high-level play I'm hoping for.

[Iosue]

What do you mean high level in 4th edition is optional? Sorry, but the "everything is optional" excuse doesn't work in this case.

Completely optional, just like every other edition of the game.

Also, you are talking about 1st edition where I was not. I was talking about 2nd edition.

No, you're talking about 1st edition, since Orcus, Demigorgon, Tiamat, etc. were not in the 2nd Edition Monstrous Compendium or Manual. They were, of course, in the 1st edition Monster Manual, as dannyalcatraz pointed out in the post you were responding to.

 

[pemerton]

Sometimes, I like for high-level play to remain in cities and dungeons as much as possible. I still want to fight orcs, very strong orcs, and other things that you fight at lower levels.

In my opinion, 3rd edition, while you could fight gods and everything else under the sun, you could fight orcs at really high level because of class levels and hit dice. You could fight a squad of 25HD orcs for example, and still challange your party. There was never an emphasis on working your way up to finally killing the gods or the demon lords like I felt from 4th edition.

Others have already pointed out that, in 4e, statting up 25th level orcs is pretty trivial.

My puzzle over 25th level orcs is more about the story than the mechanics: I'm not really sure what they are. (In 4e, the only published epic orcs I know of live on Gruumsh's plane, so they're really more like einheriar than mortal orcs.)

XunVanDorl and Sage Genesis, the way 3E and 4E did it is exactly what I don't want in 5E. I don't want to have to scale orcs to Level 25 in order to challenge the heroes.

I want Level 18 heroes in D&D Next to be able to fight wars against normal orc hordes alongside the towns, militias, and armies they are helping.

I agree with this 100%.

Huh? I thought you wanted 25 HD orcs. But you 100% agree with someone who doesn't want 25 HD orcs. I'm confused about what you want.

it does have to end with "most powerful creature(s)", because you're now the most powerful PCs. That is, unless you want to take on armies of orcs with just a handful of individuals, in which case I hope we get some good mass combat rules to handle that.

I will second [MENTION=1210]the Jester[/MENTION]'s reference to swarms upthread. The mid-paragon PCs in my game faced swarms of hobgoblins (hobgoblin phalanxes) that could (among other things) "absorb" adjacent hobgoblin minions to heal damage.

Now that they are epic the swarms they face tend to be of demons of various sorts.

I don't know if D&Dnext has swarm rules (I haven't noticed them in the bestiary, but I haven't scoured it for them either) but they work for me as a way of fitting mass combat into the ordinary combat resolution mechanics.

they presented more creatures as fair game by changing some alignments (Gold Dragons for example). So the game was presented as more of a climb the ladder hack fest.

There are assumptions in here that I find bizarre - like the only thing stopping the game being a "hack fest" is the GM telling the players "Hey, that monster's GOOD so you can't kill it!" It seems to me the best way to stop your game being hack fest is to stop attacking everything that the GM doesn't alignment-bar you from attacking.

 

[Iosue]

Huh? I thought you wanted 25 HD orcs. But you 100% agree with someone who doesn't want 25 HD orcs. I'm confused about what you want.

He wants 5e to be like 3e, not 4e, so he's going to run down any and everything about 4e, even the parts of it that are just like 1e, 2e, and/or 3e.

 

[Manbearcat]

What do you mean high level in 4th edition is optional? Sorry, but the "everything is optional" excuse doesn't work in this case.

How does this even make any sense? The only sense I can make of it is that the 4e books (?) somehow grant me a stick to say to my players:

"NO YOU WILL CONTINUE SHOWING UP TO GAME SESSIONS WHEN YOUR CHARACTERS ARE LEVEL 23 OR ITS STRAIGHT TO THE COME AND GET IT GULAG WITH YOU! YOU CANNOT GO TO THE MOVIES OR REMODEL YOUR KITCHEN!"

Whereas in prior editions, the books (?) only granted me the milquetoast authority to request:

"Hey guys...can we maybe keep playing this campaign now that you're level 23?"

I have yet to see this stick. Maybe you got a special Gestapo Collector's Edition that sold only a few copies to exclusive clientele (of which I am clearly not!).

 

[Dungeoneer]

I will second @the Jester's reference to swarms upthread. The mid-paragon PCs in my game faced swarms of hobgoblins (hobgoblin phalanxes) that could (among other things) "absorb" adjacent hobgoblin minions to heal damage.

Ooh that's cool!

 

[the Jester]

For the record, these are the stats I used for the "orcish bandit squadrons", which I have since adapted for "troglodyte zombie hordes" as well...

ORCISH BANDIT SQUADRON --- Level 19 Skirmisher
Gargantuan natural humanoid (swarm), orcs --- XP 2,400

Each orcish bandit squadron represents approximately 50 orcs.

HP 180; Bloodied 90 Initiative +13
AC 33; Fort 32; Ref 31; Will 30; Perception +8
Speed 5 Low-light vision
Resist half damage from melee and ranged attacks; Vulnerable 10 against area and close attacks

TRAITS

Swarm Attack * Aura 1
Any creature that starts its turn in the aura takes 10 damage.

Swarm
The orcish bandit squadron can share its space with other creatures, and an enemy can enter its space, which is difficult terrain. The squadron cannot be pushed, pulled or slid by melee or ranged attacks. It can squeeze through any opening large enough for a single orc.

STANDARD ACTIONS

(melee) Coordinated Assault (weapon) * At Will
Effect: The squadron shifts 1 square.
Attack: Melee 1 (each enemy in range); +24 vs. AC.
Hit: 3d8+7 damage.

(area) Javelin Volley (weapon) * At Will
Effect: The squadron shifts 1 square.
Attack: Area burst 1 within 10 (each creature in burst); +24 vs. AC.
Hit: 3d6+7 damage.

MINOR ACTIONS

(ranged) Solitary Javelin (weapon) * At Will
Special: This attack does not provoke opportunity attacks.
Attack: Ranged 10 (one creature); +24 vs. AC.
Hit: 1d6+4 damage.

TRIGGERED ACTIONS

(melee) Coordinated Opportunity (weapon) * At Will
Trigger: An enemy provokes an opportunity attack.
Attack (Opportunity Action): Melee 1 (the triggering creature); +27 vs. AC.
Hit: 4d8+9 damage.

Last Survivors * Encounter
Trigger: The squadron is reduced to 0 hit points.
Effect (No Action): Four orcish bandit soldiers appear in the squadron's space. They are worth full normal xp.

Str 25 Dex 14 Wis 8
Con 20 Int 8 Cha 8
Align CE Languages Abyssal, Giant
Equipment chain mail, heavy shield, battle axe, 6 javelins

ORCISH BANDIT SOLDIER --- Level 19 Minion Soldier
Medium natural humanoid, orc --- XP 600
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion Initiative +11
AC 35; Fort 32; Ref 31; Will 30; Perception +8
Speed 5 Low-light vision

STANDARD ACTIONS

(mbasic) Battle Axe (weapon) * At Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); +24 vs. AC.
Hit: 13 damage.

(rbasic) Javelin Throw (weapon) * At Will
Attack: Ranged 10 (one creature); +24 vs. AC.
Hit: 13 damage, and the target is slowed until the end of its next turn.

(melee) Engage (weapon) * At Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); +24 vs. AC.
Hit: 14 damage, and the target cannot move or shift to a space that is not adjacent to the bandit soldier until the end of its next turn.

Str 25 Dex 14 Wis 8
Con 20 Int 8 Cha 8
Align CE Languages Abyssal, Giant
Equipment chain mail, heavy shield, battle axe, 6 javelins

EDIT: So I guess these guys sort of do the opposite of the "absorb minions to heal" thing- they shed minions upon death. Though I like that absorb minions to heal idea- I'll use that before my epic tier campaign is done, that's for sure!

 

[Sage Genesis]

Now as I recall, Orcus was in the first Monster Manual of 4th edition while the MM from 3rd edition had no sych beijg that powerful. Sure they came out in later supplements, but 4th edition put these godlike beings in the core. Also, they presented more creatures as fair game by changing some alignments (Gold Dragons for example). So the game was presented as more of a climb the ladder hack fest.

But gold dragons weren't in the first 4e MM either. So... if I'm understanding this correctly, 3e does a thing you claim to dislike but it gets a pass because it was put in a later supplement. But 4e does something that you dislike and you get to slam it, even though it was put in a later supplement.

Look, if you just thoroughly despise 4e that's cool and all. Preferences and emotions are irrational things, and "irrational" is not synonymous with "wrong" or "invalid". But please stop trying to rationalize it through reasons that are self-contradictory. Nobody is convinced and it distracts from more worthwhile discussion.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

But gold dragons weren't in the first 4e MM either. So... if I'm understanding this correctly, 3e does a thing you claim to dislike but it gets a pass because it was put in a later supplement. But 4e does something that you dislike and you get to slam it, even though it was put in a later supplement.

Look, if you just thoroughly despise 4e that's cool and all. Preferences and emotions are irrational things, and "irrational" is not synonymous with "wrong" or "invalid". But please stop trying to rationalize it through reasons that are self-contradictory. Nobody is convinced and it distracts from more worthwhile discussion.

Doesn't matter what book gold dragons were in. Their alignment was removed to make them more likely creatures your party would kill, seeing as 4th edition was caught up on being heroes and killing lawful good gold dragons wouldn't be exactly heroic.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

Completely optional, just like every other edition of the game.


No, you're talking about 1st edition, since Orcus, Demigorgon, Tiamat, etc. were not in the 2nd Edition Monstrous Compendium or Manual. They were, of course, in the 1st edition Monster Manual, as dannyalcatraz pointed out in the post you were responding to.

I told you the everything is optional rule does not apply here. You are assumed, by default, to go all the way to level 30. There is no epic supplement nor is there a section talking about the epic tier being optional.

That's not going to fly I'm afraid.

 

[Sage Genesis]

Doesn't matter what book gold dragons were in. Their alignment was removed to make them more likely creatures your party would kill, seeing as 4th edition was caught up on being heroes and killing lawful good gold dragons wouldn't be exactly heroic.

If it doesn't matter which 4e book gold dragons were in, then it also doesn't matter which book 3e used to stat out the Big Bad Demons Guys for people to reach on the hack fest ladder.