D&D 5E The high-level play I'm hoping for.

[SteveC]

The thing I am most looking forward to for high level play is being able to do it without the game becoming more work than fun.

I make so secret of the fact that I'm a 4E fan, and it's the first Edition that I've been able to play at Epic levels that hasn't had more bookwork and analysis than playing.

The last game of 3X that I ran was Shackled City, and towards the end of it, let's just say it was not a fun experience for me. Lots of planning, so many buffs that it was impossible to keep track of them all, and the game simply became something that bore no resemblance to what I was looking for.

So far, Next hasn't shown me it's going to address those issues they seem to be back into the game.

So: high level play that you can actually play, that's my wish.

 

[jodyjohnson]

The thing I am most looking forward to for high level play is being able to do it without the game becoming more work than fun.

... The last game of 3X that I ran was Shackled City, and towards the end of it, let's just say it was not a fun experience for me. Lots of planning, so many buffs that it was impossible to keep track of them all, and the game simply became something that bore no resemblance to what I was looking for.

So far, Next hasn't shown me it's going to address those issues they seem to be back into the game.

The 'concentration' mechanic cleans up a lot of the buffing mini-game. Some sort of stacking restriction on magic item/spell bonuses would take care of the rest.

Spells beyond 5th are down to 1 each level per day, with what we've seen of the scroll and potion rules suggesting stockpiling isn't going to happen as much.

 

[Sage Genesis]

XunVanDorl and Sage Genesis, the way 3E and 4E did it is exactly what I don't want in 5E. I don't want to have to scale orcs to Level 25 in order to challenge the heroes.

I want Level 18 heroes in D&D Next to be able to fight wars against normal orc hordes alongside the towns, militias, and armies they are helping. The flatter math/Bounded Accuracy of 5E lets the orcs be low level monsters that still challenge the heroes, without having to justify why hordes of Level 18 orcs exist and why they haven't conquered the world beforehand. This still allows for orc champions/kings to scale a little closer to the heroes if the DM wants.

See, and that's fine.

Like SteveC I like 4e but I'm not under any delusions that everybody should like it as well. If somebody has a certain preference that isn't well catered to by [insert edition or game here], then it's perfectly understandable that they hope another game suits them better. I have no problem with that. I only have a problem when people say that [insert edition or game here] was unique in doing something, when in fact it wasn't. Saying that 3e lets you level up orcs so you can keep using them but that 4e doesn't is, at best, a misunderstanding.

As a sidenote though, I see a lot of people praising the Bounded Accuracy for letting them use orcs (or goblins, or whatever) into the highest levels. I say that remains to be seen. A lot of people forget the other side of the Bounded Accuracy coin, namely that progression is still in there but handled through other methods. As an example, a dwarven warrior with the heavy armor feat can be almost impossible to hit or hurt. A mid-level Barbarian or high-level Fighter could even regenerate hp faster than the mooks could inflict it.

Another example would be a wood elf Rogue of level 11 or higher. This character can follow an orc army, wait until it starts to rain or snow a bit, and then snipe them all to death with a longbow. She can make Stealth checks out on even the flattest of plains, she has advantage on her Stealth checks, the lowest possible Stealth result she can reach is 23 anyway, and the orcs can't get high enough. Even if some unique orc commander could spot her with the (un)luckiest rolls possible, she can run out of sight and re-hide without effort thanks to higher speed and multiple actions. Unless the orcs can magically bombard every square within 150 feet non-stop, they really have no chance of stopping the guerrilla of a single ninja-elf.

All this of course based on the latest playtest package. As I said, it remains to be seen but I suspect that a lot of people are rather misjudging the way high-level Next works.

 

[Mistwell]

Jester, let's not go there because I've part of these forums for a long time. I know what's 'done' here and I wouldn't be making such claims because I know what's true and what isn't. It's like I told Wulfgar, click that report button and let the mods decide what is edition warring. I'm not going to cease mentioning previous editions in a negative way just because it might hurt your feelings. This is a discussion about high level play and what I want out of it. 4th edition had a style I don't want carried over. Some of you seem to forget, this edition is supposed to be a mixture of previous editions so the discussion about them is unavoidable.

 

[SteveC]

Just as an aside: from what I've seen, this is going to be another edition that didn't really playtest the high levels that much. It's natural, since fewer campaigns reach them, but I don't get much of a sense we have a better grasp on high level play than in previous editions (and that certainly includes 4E).

And I must also echo something Sage Genesis mentioned: I'm a fan of 4E, but I don't expect other people to be... it's a personal preference issue that absolutely doesn't have an objective answer. I'll just maintain that it goes both ways: pro and con.

 

[Wulfgar76]

Just as an aside: from what I've seen, this is going to be another edition that didn't really playtest the high levels that much. It's natural, since fewer campaigns reach them, but I don't get much of a sense we have a better grasp on high level play than in previous editions (and that certainly includes 4E).

Every edition I've played (2e, 3e, 4e) broke down at high level and became an mind-numbing mess of overpowered abilities and option bloat.

But I disagree that D&D Next is going to be as bad as its predecessors in this regard. With bounded accuracy, static defenses and other concepts it seems to me they are actively trying to curb the breakneck power advancement that ruins high level play. In my opinion they aren't doing enough. I'd love it if characters stopped gaining Hit Dice after 10th level (like it was in 2e) and instead got 2 or 3 hp thereafter, depending on class. This idea that you should get a gift basket of cool new powers each time you level up is fun in an instant-gratification sort of way, but the consequences are 9th level characters that can slaughter dragons with ease and truly horrendous high level play.

 

[the Jester]

Jester, let's not go there because I've part of these forums for a long time. I know what's 'done' here and I wouldn't be making such claims because I know what's true and what isn't. It's like I told Wulfgar, click that report button and let the mods decide what is edition warring.

Isn't it nicer if you just don't push other peoples' buttons? That way you don't end up getting reported and eventually possibly banned.

But okay- your lengthy time here- a whole month- has certainly left you aware of "what's true and what isn't". I imagine that you know the mores and general tone here far better than I do, since you've been around so long and I am a mere newcomer.

So henceforth, instead of accepting that your intentions are all good and you just have issues with your delivery, I'll report away!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Isn't it nicer if you just don't push other peoples' buttons? That way you don't end up getting reported and eventually possibly banned.

But okay- your length time here- a whole month- has certainly left you aware of "what's true and what isn't". I imagine that you know the mores and general tone here far better than I do, since you've been around so long and I am a mere newcomer.

So henceforth, instead of accepting that your intentions are all good and you just have issues with your delivery, I'll report away!

Since I put him on my ignore list I can't access his posts to report him. Otherwise I'd be doing it too.

 

[Manbearcat]

I am a mere newcomer.

Welcome to Enworld The Jester!

 

[the Jester]

Welcome to Enworld The Jester!

Thank you so much!