D&D 5E The high-level play I'm hoping for.

[Umbran]

Jester, let's not go there because..

You don't want to go there, because he's basically correct, you know.

I know what's 'done' here and I wouldn't be making such claims because I know what's true and what isn't.

Here's the thing: "It is the truth!" doesn't mean you aren't being a jerk about it. You can be 100% factually correct, and insulting boor at the same time! They aren't mutually exclusive.

It then follows that, "But it's teh Trvth!" will get you exactly zero points when the mods have to step in.

I'm not going to cease mentioning previous editions in a negative way just because it might hurt your feelings. This is a discussion about high level play and what I want out of it.

Well, then how about you limit mentioning it to places and times here it might actually be a constructive part of the discussion? At this point you're not talking about what you do want, but what you *don't* want. Stop try to define 5e by what it shouldn't be, and start defining it by what it should be.

You see, there's a fundamental problem with taking a negative position - you are forced to continually say negative things. In a place like EN world, you are basically guaranteed that there will be folks who disagree with you. So, you either repeat yourself, or you have to top yourself. So, either you become a monotonous drum beater that nobody listens to or you eventually have to go over the line in your negativity and the mods have to swat you. Either way, you lose.

So, really, if you don't like 4e, that's okay. Just realize that if the basic substance of your position always boils down to,"Edition X is bad," folks will figure out that beating on the edition is more important to you than the original subject matter.

 

[Mercurius]

I agree with the OP in that I like the idea of a 20th level fighter not being able to sit and eat a bag of pretzels while a horde of orcs attacks him, but instead has to wade through them, fighting for his life Deathdealer-style. I also like the approach Pathfinder takes with "Mythic tiers" (or whatever it is) as a kind of parallel, rather than a required way that all high level characters need to be. Its sort of like having an 11 on the dial once you get to higher levels. That just seems so obviously in line with 5E's design goals of a relatively simple and tame core game, with modular options.

As for the hullabaloo, let's look at what the OP actually wrote:

To me, 4th edition had me feeling like I was climbing the creature ladder amd just killing things until I reached the most powerful creature left.

Taken in a vaccum, that is a pretty harmless statement and shouldn't be viewed as "edition warring," in my opinion. If it is, well, I don't know what to say. I was under the impression that "X sucks" is edition warring but "I don't like this aspect of X edition" wasn't. His statement is more of the latter sort.

That said, it sounds like the OP has a reputation as a 4E basher, so I can understand why people got upset. But without that context, and only looking at that sentence above, it seems like a massive over-reaction to a pretty harmless statement of dislike of an aspect of 4E (even though he mistakenly implied that this quality was only applicable to 4E, which a few posters corrected him about).

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

XunVanDorl and Sage Genesis, the way 3E and 4E did it is exactly what I don't want in 5E. I don't want to have to scale orcs to Level 25 in order to challenge the heroes.

I want Level 18 heroes in D&D Next to be able to fight wars against normal orc hordes alongside the towns, militias, and armies they are helping. The flatter math/Bounded Accuracy of 5E lets the orcs be low level monsters that still challenge the heroes, without having to justify why hordes of Level 18 orcs exist and why they haven't conquered the world beforehand. This still allows for orc champions/kings to scale a little closer to the heroes if the DM wants.

In my epic 4E (FR) and 3E (Eberron) games, the heroes scaled way beyond the people of the world, which helped in causing a disconnect from said world. They had little respect for authority or appreciation of danger in the world because nothing could challenge them. And the game mechanics/rules of the universe supported that way of thinking as logical. When it really wasn't.

... in my opinion.

I agree with this 100%.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

You do realize that you can have more than one user name in here? Also, I had Xunvaldorl spelled a different wqy but forgot the password so I just created another one.

So what were you trying to prove anyway? No it shows the join date under your name. You want a cookie for showing me that?

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

Now as I recall, Orcus was in the first Monster Manual of 4th edition while the MM from 3rd edition had no sych beijg that powerful. Sure they came out in later supplements, but 4th edition put these godlike beings in the core. Also, they presented more creatures as fair game by changing some alignments (Gold Dragons for example). So the game was presented as more of a climb the ladder hack fest.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

OTOH, Orcus, Demogorgon, Dispater, Asmodeus, Tiamat and many others were in the AD&D MM, so what's your point?

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

OTOH, Orcus, Demogorgon, Dispater, Asmodeus, Tiamat and many others were in the AD&D MM, so what's your point?

Thats great but they were a hell of a lot weaker than they are now and leveling stopped at 20. 4th editions natural level progression goes all the way to 30. Gods, Demon Lords, and Promordials are all on the natural menu for you to slaughter. High level campaigns in 2nd and 3rd editions were purely optional.

 

[Iosue]

Thats great but they were a hell of a lot weaker than they are now and leveling stopped at 20. 4th editions natural level progression goes all the way to 30. Gods, Demon Lords, and Promordials are all on the natural menu for you to slaughter. High level campaigns in 2nd and 3rd editions were purely optional.

You are making absolutely no sense. High level campaigns in 4th edition is just as optional as any other edition. AD&D leveling did not stop at 20. It was explicitly limitless, and the magic-user and cleric spell progressions in the Player's Handbook go up to 29th level. Nor does it strike me that the gods and demons are any weaker in AD&D than they are in 4th edition. HP totals are higher in 4e, but so are damage outputs, so it all evens out. The fact that Orcus has a THAC0 of 2, and his Wand kills anything immediately on touch (no save), combined with his 20 at-will spells suggests to me that he wasn't a push-over.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

You are making absolutely no sense. High level campaigns in 4th edition is just as optional as any other edition. AD&D leveling did not stop at 20. It was explicitly limitless, and the magic-user and cleric spell progressions in the Player's Handbook go up to 29th level. Nor does it strike me that the gods and demons are any weaker in AD&D than they are in 4th edition. HP totals are higher in 4e, but so are damage outputs, so it all evens out. The fact that Orcus has a THAC0 of 2, and his Wand kills anything immediately on touch (no save), combined with his 20 at-will spells suggests to me that he wasn't a push-over.

What do you mean high level in 4th edition is optional? Sorry, but the "everything is optional" excuse doesn't work in this case.

Also, you are talking about 1st edition where I was not. I was talking about 2nd edition.

 

[Mistwell]

You do realize that you can have more than one user name in here?

Psst. No, you can't. Not without breaking the rules anyway. What on earth made you think you were allowed to create sock-puppet accounts here?