D&D General The History of Alignment: Why D&D Has the Nine-Point Alignment System 4 UR Memes

[Voadam]

I disagree. Regardless of whether alignment in 4e had any teeth, I think that the 4e alignment system worked incredibly well with the Kaoskampf motif of the World Axis mythos. The general idea is that Lawful Good represents cosmic order whereas Chaotic Evil represents cosmic entropy and ruin. Within this setup "Good(ness)" will push the balance towards cosmic order whereas "Evil" will push the cosmic balance towards cosmic entropy. In many respects, this made 4e alignment more biblical and ancient in its worldview. In retrospect, it actually feels more like a return to B/X but with good and evil added to a singular spectrum.

The 4e god war could have been the gods as order and the primordials as chaos but then you have Gruumsh and Bane and half the gods as on the side of order but being also for cosmic ruin.

It can work as nuanced and not straightforward and messy with that kind of premise but fitting in whether Kord is pushing to cosmic order order or not is not a straightforward judgment.

I think it would have worked better as three point good, unaligned, and evil and left Chaoskampf for the cosmology Dawn War setup mythology narrative and out of alignment with evil gods.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I found 4e’s alignment system, making lawful good gooder than good, quite disturbing, since it seems to speak to the moral code of the writers. To be a good person you need to be pro-establishment. This seems to tie into political leaders co-opting religion (and hence morality) to reenforce their own power.

 

[Aldarc]

The 4e god war could have been the gods as order and the primordials as chaos but then you have Gruumsh and Bane and half the gods as on the side of order but being also for cosmic ruin.

It can work as nuanced and not straightforward and messy with that kind of premise but fitting in whether Kord is pushing to cosmic order order or not is not a straightforward judgment.

I think it would have worked better as three point good, unaligned, and evil and left Chaoskampf for the cosmology Dawn War setup mythology narrative and out of alignment with evil gods.

Our opinions differ on this matter and that's okay.

 

[Hriston]

The OP seems to have skipped over the apparent use of five-point alignment (with the very few exceptions which use parentheticals) in the Monster Manual (1977). This would seem to complicate the idea of the SR article as a straight forward presentation of nine-point alignment.

 

[Wolfram stout]

I read this thread just cause I knew it would reference Moorcock, Zelazny, Anderson. And that makes me feel old and nostalgic in the best kind of way.

I always liked the Law-Chaos axis, regardless of if it was used like Anderson with a coorelation to Good-Evil or separated like Moorcock and Zelazny. Esp for monsters/NPC. I agree that they don't do much for Character depth (but there are other tools for that)

I am inbetween books, and I think 3 Hearts and 3 Lions are now calling me for a re-read.

 

[Aldarc]

One potential addendum to this article that I would find interesting is Wizards of the Coast's arguably bigger IP: Magic the Gathering, which deliberately took a different approach to alignment with its Color Pie. From my own understanding, not only was it about playstyle but also partially created in mind as an alternative to D&D's alignment system.

 

[Voadam]

The mechanical impacts of alignment varying is pretty interesting.

Oe had paladins needing to be lawful and falling for any chaotic act.

1e had a number of classes with alignment restrictions and some with consequences for changing alignment or paladins taking any evil act. As noted changing alignment cost a level and adherence to alignment could impact by a factor of four how much training for a level cost. It also had alignment languages and a bunch of magic items that interacted with alignment.

Basic had basically alignment languages.

3e had the most mechanical impacts with more classes interacting with alignment, alignment descriptors interacting in different ways such as with spells and monster DR, and items with alignment features and interactions.

4e I don't recall having anything mechanically.

5e has a few oddball magic items that interact with alignment.

3e's mechanical alignment depth was sufficient that you could remove the individual morality aspect entirely and have it all be cosmic forces and it would work really well (other than the paladin falling for evil act part).

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

I used to call the poles of the 4e alignment system Obsessive Compulsive Good and Attention Deficit Evil.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

@Snarf Zagyg, I am disappointed that you didn't delve into the changes to alignment in 4e, especially the introduction and treatment of Unaligned.

Well, I didn't forget it (referencing it a few times to note that the nine-point system was mostly, but not completely, unchanged after it was introduced).

I didn't delve into it for two reasons-

1. I mean .... I try to stay as neutral as possible about 4e, which just seems to anger everyone. So I try not to discuss it too much unless it's essential and germane to my topic. Much like I use the shorthand Peterson quote for my feelings about "credit" when it comes to Arneson/Gygax, I think my feelings about 4e generally are, "4e was the Apple Newton of D&D- a product that both had to exist, was necessary for the future, and couldn't succeed. I am glad it existed, I think that the rules are great, but I also think it was doomed from the start, and it's not my bag, baby. But I am glad it brought joy to the people that love it. I hope that it gets the most awesome retroclone ever for those people and a thriving community." BUT THAT IS JUST AN OPINION.

2. More importantly, I know my limitations. I have never researched the alignment system in 4e or why it changed or understand what impacts it had, so my bloviations on that topic would be even more uninformed! I'll spare y'all that.

Looks like you and @Voadam and @Aldarc can hit those issues, so please feel free to discuss anything you want about 4e's alignment system. FWIW, I think "unaligned" makes sense, but I don't have anything insightful to say about it. I'll leave that to people with more knowledge.

 

[el-remmen]

I think 3 Hearts and 3 Lions are now calling me for a re-read.

The audio book version read by Bronson Pinchot is really good. I was really impressed with his voice acting (and that he had range beyond Cousin Balkie)