D&D General The History of 'Immersion' in RPGs

D&D historian Jon Peterson has taken a look at the concept of 'immersion' as it related to tabletop roleplaying games, with references to the concept going back to The Wild Hunt (1977), D&D modules like In Search of the Unknown, games like Boot Hill, and Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood speaking in Dragon Magazine...

D&D historian Jon Peterson has taken a look at the concept of 'immersion' as it related to tabletop roleplaying games, with references to the concept going back to The Wild Hunt (1977), D&D modules like In Search of the Unknown, games like Boot Hill, and Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood speaking in Dragon Magazine.


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Guest 6801328

Guest
They only cover "everything" because the from 3E on the game designers lost sight of how resolution worked in D&D up to that point: namely that the player said "I do this" and the DM said "this is the result." Dice rolls were generally limited to very specific situations ("you have a 1 in 6 chance of spotting the secret door") and everything else was adjudication.

You say "from 3E on" but what you are describing is very explicitly how 5e works. It's true that a lot of people don't seem to realize this, and try to play 5e using patterns from previous editions, but according to the 5e PHB and DMG the way it works is:
  1. Player describes an action they are taking and what they hope to accomplish ("goal and approach")
  2. The DM adjudicates and narrates the outcome.
  3. If...and only if...the DM decides that a) the outcome is uncertain, and b) there are consequences for failure, the DM may call for an ability check.
From what I've witnessed...even in my own group...people don't play this way. Instead they play like it's an earlier edition.
 

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Oofta

Legend
That's an illustrative example. These debates often end up comparing mental challenges to "picking up a weight", but those two things aren't even remotely comparable.

Here's a scenario:

Alfred and Betty both attempt an Athletics test, and they both succeed.

They attempt a different athletics test, and only Betty succeeds.

Does Betty have a higher strength than Alfred? If so, how much stronger?

There's not enough information to really answer that, is there? It could be that the first test was really easy, or maybe it was hard and they both got lucky with the dice roll. Maybe the 2nd test was medium, and Alfred got lucky but Betty rolled a 1.

On the other hand, if we knew that the first test was to pick up a 10 pound rock, and the second test was to pick up a 50 pound rock, we would start to have some information. I would probably guess that Alfred has a pretty low Strength score since he couldn't even pick up 50 pounds, but we still wouldn't have a lot of information about Betty. At least as strong as is required to pick up 50 pounds.

The problem with Int, Wis, and Cha, however, is that there is no unit of measure to express the difficulty of individual tasks. Take a dungeon puzzle where you have to realize that a message is an anagram. How many "mental pounds" does that weigh? In the real world, it could very well be that the brain surgeon fails to see it (because her brain is busy doing numerology on the letters and noticing that when you square the numbers and take the modulus of a certain prime number it almost produces the fibonacci sequence) until the coal miner announces, "Oye, that actually spells KILROY WAS HERE."
One individual success or failure isn't particularly relevant. Proficiency also matters, maybe Betty is a trained weight lifter and knows how to maximize her strength. Alfred just reaches down, uses bad form and wrenches his back.

When it comes other types of abilities, no we don't have a a good way of directly measuring (IQ tests attempt it, but it's not great) but there is a difference. If there is no difference ability scores are pointless. In general I know the average ogre will not be nearly as intelligent as the average mind flayer. Just because I don't have a good measurement that corresponds to the real world does not mean the difference does not exist.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
Incidentally, I have scrapped the whole idea of knowledge rolls. I determine in advance of the session roughly what each character would know based on intelligence score, proficiencies and background. Makes more sense that way.

And I don't care whether a player's using 'metagame' knowledge, to be honest.

I, when I'm DM, would never determine in advance what a character "would know". They know what they want to know. Or what they think they know. If there's something I really don't want the characters/players to know, I don't use stat blocks straight from the Monster Manual.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
I think its entirely possible to go "huh, that looks like its difficult, the guy with the 8 INT would probably give up and let someone smarter handle it."

Of course it's possible to do that! Have fun!

But, are you claiming there's an objectively correct answer? That if one player thinks that problem would be too tough for Int 8, and another player thinks that problem would be easy for Int 8, we can definitively say that one is right and one is wrong?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I, when I'm DM, would never determine in advance what a character "would know". They know what they want to know. Or what they think they know. If there's something I really don't want the characters/players to know, I don't use stat blocks straight from the Monster Manual.
You're conflating issues here. Metagaming is different from intelligence which is different from knowledge.
 

jgsugden

Legend
Acting is not roleplaying. Acting can optionally be one of the components of roleplaying.
Role Playing definition #1: the acting out of the part of a particular person or character, for example as a technique in training or psychotherapy.
And how about if I'm playing a 9 Int squire, and I figure out a word puzzle? Or an 8 Int Barbarian and I make a deduction based on the fact that heat rises?
I addressed this above. A DM should determine a DC, should consider whether it can be beat passively, and then either role or allow the passive roll to stand. What a character can do and what a player can do are different. This is not different when we talk about feats of mental or physical capability.

I have no way of knowing what Int score I would be assigned if I were hypothetically statted-up as a D&D character, and neither do you.
Not true, as discussed elsewhere - IQ was the model for Intelligence.
How can either you or I tell whether my 10 Int character should be able to piece together a couple of clues to solve a mystery, even if we take an arbitrary stab at defining my Int as 11, 15, or 8?
How can you tell whether your 10 strength character can lift something? A DC is set, and a roll (or passive roll) is used.

The passive roll is an easy way to discard the situations that just do not matter.

Let's take a different approach: Flip this around. I'm your DM. You're in my game. You try to convince an NPC of a lie. I tell you that he doesn't believe it. You say, "Wait - I didn't even roll a deception check." I say, "I could tell you were lying, so the NPC could." Later, you try to stump a Sphinx with a riddle. You ask it and I say, "Oh, I know this one. The sphinx answers correctly." You later decide to hide in a room and spy on a meeting. You cast invisibility and roll a great stealth - but I tell you not to bother. "Dude, you're hiding in the obvious spot. It is exactly where I would have hid. The enemies assume you are there and attack." Sound like fun?

We provide the motivations, and the decisions, of our PCs. The rules provide the capabilities. This includes their mental capabilities.[/b]
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
Let's take a different approach: Flip this around. I'm your DM. You're in my game. You try to convince an NPC of a lie. I tell you that he doesn't believe it. You say, "Wait - I didn't even roll a deception check." I say, "I could tell you were lying, so the NPC could." Later, you try to stump a Sphinx with a riddle. You ask it and I say, "Oh, I know this one. The sphinx answers correctly." You later decide to hide in a room and spy on a meeting. You cast invisibility and roll a great stealth - but I tell you not to bother. "Dude, you're hiding in the obvious spot. It is exactly where I would have hid. The enemies assume you are there and attack." Sound like fun?

The DM has full knowledge of the in-game facts, so none of these examples are at all analogous.

And if your problem is that the players know your in-game facts....change them.

Why force players to pretend they don't know things, when you could easily use things they actually don't know?
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
The underlying cause of so many arguments is, I think, two entirely different definitions of immersion, of what it means to "inhabit" your character.

Type A means doing what you think your character would do.

Type B means you and your character are having the same experience.

To use the canonical example of trolls and fire:

Player A thinks, "My character wouldn't know that you need to use fire on trolls, so by pretending I don't know that, I'm inhabiting my character."

Player B thinks, "The first time this happened I was freaking out and thought we were going to die, and it was awesome. Now, however, I know all about trolls, so pretending I don't feels like a disconnect with my character."

And the corollary to B is: "Except that the player next to me is new, so for his sake I'll pretend to be freaking out."

Both approaches are totally valid. The problem is that the two philosophies lead to totally different answers in how to handle a wide range of scenarios.

EDIT: ...lead to two totally different definitions of "good roleplaying".
While I agree that people will approach how they play an RPG or how they "inhabit" their character differently, I do think it's important to clarify something regarding your categories.

Roleplaying is literally playing a role. It doesn't require acting, which is a different skill that can be applied. It's simply making decisions and choosing actions as if you were that person. This is the same if it's a roleplaying exercise in a training scenario at work as it is an RPG. Category A is definitely roleplaying.

So Category B is only roleplaying if the role you are taking on is you. There's nothing wrong with playing a PC as if it is you within the presented scenario.

--

In terms of the fire and trolls, my only comment is that most of the time, those that argue that a specific PC won't know that trolls are vulnerable to fire is not considering the fact that within that setting it's likely that civilized people have been fighting trolls for thousands of years and it's not likely to be a secret. While a player might occasionally me ask whether they would know something or not, the only time that we ever comment that somebody won't know something is when the party is split up (it happens often), and a player (usually accidentally) acts based on info from the other group. It's very rare any of us call anything out because we feel the best person to determine whether their PC knows that "trolls are vulnerable to fire or not" or similar scenarios is the player themselves.

If the player honestly believes that they would not know to use fire on trolls, and thus they choose not to, they are roleplaying their PC just fine.

The second situation, "...for his sake I'll pretend..." is different. It's certainly not wrong from a gameplay standpoint if you are intending to benefit your fellow player. But it's no longer roleplaying by definition, because you aren't making the decision or acting based on that character that lives in that world. Instead, you are choosing a course of action based on what's going on between players at the table.

That doesn't make it bad, so don't take it as a criticism. But if the goal is roleplaying, then really the only question you need to answer is, "what would this character do?"

My general recommendation, which is largely lost in the current D&D (and other) rulesets, is to help players to better understand their characters as real people in a real world. The more you understand your character, the better you can roleplay that character. And within the context of the game, nearly everything that isn't directly interacting with the rules, can (and should?) be roleplaying. Combat is still roleplaying. When you engage in combat, how you engage in combat, the actions you take, everything is still roleplaying. The only part that isn't roleplaying is the mechanical resolution. How you react to that resolution is.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
While I agree that people will approach how they play an RPG or how they "inhabit" their character differently, I do think it's important to clarify something regarding your categories.

Roleplaying is literally playing a role.

That we agree on.

It doesn't require acting, which is a different skill that can be applied.

That we agree on, too.

It's simply making decisions and choosing actions as if you were that person.

Here I disagree somewhat. Or, at least, I disagree with what others seem to mean when they say similar things. I'll elaborate below.

This is the same if it's a roleplaying exercise in a training scenario at work as it is an RPG. Category A is definitely roleplaying.

So Category B is only roleplaying if the role you are taking on is you. There's nothing wrong with playing a PC as if it is you within the presented scenario.

--

In terms of the fire and trolls, my only comment is that most of the time, those that argue that a specific PC won't know that trolls are vulnerable to fire is not considering the fact that within that setting it's likely that civilized people have been fighting trolls for thousands of years and it's not likely to be a secret. While a player might occasionally me ask whether they would know something or not, the only time that we ever comment that somebody won't know something is when the party is split up (it happens often), and a player (usually accidentally) acts based on info from the other group. It's very rare any of us call anything out because we feel the best person to determine whether their PC knows that "trolls are vulnerable to fire or not" or similar scenarios is the player themselves.

If the player honestly believes that they would not know to use fire on trolls, and thus they choose not to, they are roleplaying their PC just fine.

The second situation, "...for his sake I'll pretend..." is different. It's certainly not wrong from a gameplay standpoint if you are intending to benefit your fellow player. But it's no longer roleplaying by definition, because you aren't making the decision or acting based on that character that lives in that world. Instead, you are choosing a course of action based on what's going on between players at the table.

That doesn't make it bad, so don't take it as a criticism. But if the goal is roleplaying, then really the only question you need to answer is, "what would this character do?"

My general recommendation, which is largely lost in the current D&D (and other) rulesets, is to help players to better understand their characters as real people in a real world. The more you understand your character, the better you can roleplay that character. And within the context of the game, nearly everything that isn't directly interacting with the rules, can (and should?) be roleplaying. Combat is still roleplaying. When you engage in combat, how you engage in combat, the actions you take, everything is still roleplaying. The only part that isn't roleplaying is the mechanical resolution. How you react to that resolution is.


Most of this I agree with. The point of departure is in determining "what would this character do". Because there is no one thing. Minds are not that deterministic.

You say, "the player honestly believes that they would not know to use fire..." I mean, sure, the player could believe that. But I prefer to ask, "What's the coolest thing this character might do, and is there a reasonable justification for it?" You can decide what your character believes, there is no right answer. And even if you could know the most likely thing your character would believe, wouldn't that also likely be the least interesting choice?

I like to use the example of Bilbo going on an adventure. That was actually not what a Hobbit is most likely to do. A Hobbit is most likely to refuse to go on an adventure. (And the rest of the story was full of things that Hobbits are unlikely to do.). I'm really glad Tolkien did not restrict himself to asking "what is the most likely thing a respectable, middle-aged Hobbit would do in this instance?" because it would have been a short, boring story. Sure, oftentimes, especially early in the story, Bilbo did do the most expected thing. But that changed throughout the story as he increasingly did more and more surprising things. Especially when it mattered. Bilbo continued to act like a respectable Hobbit, in order to portray his Hobbitishness, but primarily on inconsequential things

The response I often get is, "No, going on the adventure was actually the most likely thing to do, because Bilbo isn't just any Hobbit, he..." and then they list the reasons Bilbo is a special Hobbit.

Exactly. And your character is not just any commoner, he/she is a protagonist of the story.

So, again, while I acknowledge that it is a form of roleplaying to decide what your character "would" do, I think that "would" is entirely subjective.

But it is just as much roleplaying to ask "What might this character do, and how would their personality explain that choice?" And, "How does taking this unexpected course of action help me to flesh out this character, and make him/her more real?" And even, "How does this choice suggest that my character is evolving into something different than he/she was earlier in the story?"

And I find that sort of roleplaying to be much more interesting, and to result in much more engaging stories, than to simply ask, "What would he/she do?"
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
While I agree that people will approach how they play an RPG or how they "inhabit" their character differently, I do think it's important to clarify something regarding your categories.

Roleplaying is literally playing a role. It doesn't require acting, which is a different skill that can be applied. It's simply making decisions and choosing actions as if you were that person. This is the same if it's a roleplaying exercise in a training scenario at work as it is an RPG. Category A is definitely roleplaying.

So Category B is only roleplaying if the role you are taking on is you. There's nothing wrong with playing a PC as if it is you within the presented scenario.
That's not accurate. Category B is only you as a role, if you are not also playing a Halfling Cleric of Tymora or other role that can't possibly be you. If I decide to play a Halfling Cleric of Tymora, but use my personality, knowledge and thinking ability, I am still taking on the role of a Halfling, the role of a Cleric, and the role of a follower of Tymora. Those roles don't go away just because I'm playing them as me.
 

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