D&D General The Human Side of D&D History - From Gary Gygax to Temple of Elemental Evil

[UngainlyTitan]

Hyperbolic internet mobs are not justice

No they are not and I was arguing for such. Just that taboo topic also lead to injustice and worse.

 

[OptionalRule]

No they are not and I was arguing for such. Just that taboo topic also lead to injustice and worse.

Not dealing with issues well do indeed lead to injustice and worse. This is much borader than silence. It also includes hyperblolic internet mobs, and mobs of many kinds. Missrepresentations, bad faith arguments and more.

This thread is about not dehumanizing people in our speculative online discussions and has progressed to taboo topics, toxicity and more. So don't do the thing, while trying to guard against the thing.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Trying to cover up or silence people's very human flaws under the guise of 'humanizing' them is the opposite of humanizing. And reducing people with genuine issues to 'hyperbolic internet mobs' is, in fact, dehumanizing.

 

[Hussar]

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Simple: The attack isn't the fact itself - it is your use of it. How is a hammer a weapon? You hit people with it.

If your use of the ugly fact is to cause suffering or harm, it is an attack.

But I’m certainly not going to condemn the fact for that. Hiding the facts because making them known might hurt the subject of the fact is very often the root of the most evil stuff in history.

 

[Hussar]

Hyperbolic internet mobs are not justice

Hyperbolic internet mobs are rarely interested in facts. Such as the reactions which spawned this thread.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

I feel that part of the problem with this is our culture is becoming more divisive. This is known.

Where the problem comes in regards to Gary, I feel, is a lot of people are trying to use things he's said against another side. Some are pro-sexist, and some are anti-sexist. Neither, I feel, is speaking for Gary. My experience, anecdotally, was brief on here or seeing him at Gencon once.

I don't feel he would be okay with people putting words in his mouth. He seemed a straight-shooter who was PLENTY able to speak for himself. My impression of him was that he wouldn't make an issue over this - he would apologize for any injury and try to move it along, I feel. He wouldn't correct his work - maybe double down on it in an attempt to 'clarify' - but I don't think he was out actively trying to harm anyone the way JKR is.

To be honest, I'm not even sure how hard he would 'fight' about the Correct Way to Play D&D. By the time of his passing, I had the general feel he was long past D&D other than in a historical/past sense.

 

[mamba]

Where the problem comes in regards to Gary, I feel, is a lot of people are trying to use things he's said against another side.

no one was using what he said against anyone, a foreword to a book mentioned that the stuff he wrote had some sexist parts

Some are pro-sexist, and some are anti-sexist.

the pro-sexist got upset about this, but hey, it is not the job of the authors to appease the jerks of the world

I don't feel he would be okay with people putting words in his mouth. He seemed a straight-shooter who was PLENTY able to speak for himself.

he did, and he called himself a sexist

To be honest, I'm not even sure how hard he would 'fight' about the Correct Way to Play D&D. By the time of his passing, I had the general feel he was long past D&D other than in a historical/past sense.

maybe, but it is not really about Gary, and certainly not the Gary of the 2000s. It is about what he wrote in the 1970s

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

no one was using what he said against anyone, a foreword to a book mentioned that the stuff he wrote had some sexist parts


the pro-sexist got upset about this, but hey, it is not the job of the authors to appease the jerks of the world


he did, and he called himself a sexist


maybe, but it is not really about Gary, and certainly not the Gary of the 2000s. It is about what he wrote in the 1970s

Sorry to trigger you.

My first comment was about Gary's previous comments... which were, surprise, referenced in the foreword to the book. I apologize I wasn't clear enough about that for you or others.

It's not limited to just what he wrote in the 1970s if he wrote about it in the 2000s when specifically asked about it. But, I'm sure you understand that.

 

[the Jester]

I don't feel he would be okay with people putting words in his mouth. He seemed a straight-shooter who was PLENTY able to speak for himself. My impression of him was that he wouldn't make an issue over this - he would apologize for any injury and try to move it along, I feel.

You can read his own words, which repeatedly did not apologize for his sexism, but rather- and consistently- reaffirmed it.

He wouldn't correct his work - maybe double down on it in an attempt to 'clarify' - but I don't think he was out actively trying to harm anyone the way JKR is.

Not all harm is the result of actively attempting to inflict it. Sexism causes harm by helping to continue sexist practices in the culture at large. Now, you could argue that sexism doesn't harm anyone, but I think many women would disagree. I am not a woman, but I would also disagree: we are better served by treating everyone as equals than we are by treating some people as if they are lesser than others based on inborn characteristics like hair color, skin color, sex, gender, or sexual preference.

 

[Hussar]

I always have the same question to people whenever these topics come up.

Do you really think anyone is going to thank you? Forty years from now when people are looking back, do you honestly believe that anyone will say, “hey thank you for protecting Gygax from this. “?