D&D General The Human Side of D&D History - From Gary Gygax to Temple of Elemental Evil

[Sacrosanct]

When I became a man, I put away childish things."

Saying this on a gaming forum.....

I myself refuse to put away childish things

 

[OptionalRule]

I like this quote from Maya Angelou better, since it can apply to any time frame:
“I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.”

top shelf quote!

 

[OptionalRule]

Saying this on a gaming forum.....

I myself refuse to put away childish things

Is this the part where we discuss the difference between Childish and Child-Like?

 

[Clint_L]

One thing that I am struck by in the defensiveness that many have about Gygax and others is how thin-skinned it is, because the criticisms are actually pretty small potatoes: basically, that these were flawed people who did some stuff/published some things that most of us now see as problematic, but that are only a tiny bit of their legacy. Like, I don't understand why some folks seem so reluctant to admit that Gygax was a great creator who left a monumental, positive impact on our culture...but yeah, he was a sexist, and proud of it, and some aspects of this came into his creations.

And one reason I don't understand it is because I love reading rock biographies. You wanna talk about dealing with complicated legacies, pick up just about any biography of a famous rock star (or other artist) that you admire. Or don't, if you don't wanna be disillusioned. Because even the best of them have some skeletons. Sometimes some really terrible, clearly criminal ones. After you've read a few of these, you learn to start tempering your fandom with some realism.

So I don't see the criticisms of Gygax and co. as particularly difficult for me to wrap my head around. Not that sexism, for example, isn't a very important issue, but these guys weren't monsters. We're not talking Phil Spektor. We're talking a (mostly) culturally conservative mindset from mid-century Middle America, and a lot of fairly conventionally sexist beliefs that go along with that. Not a lot different from some of my older male relatives. Not even that different from a lot of guys my own age. I obviously disagree with these viewpoints, but they aren't the sum total of who these people are, or even close to it.

So I have no reason to doubt that Gygax was a gregarious, likeable fellow at cons. I too would be starstruck if he contributed to a thread I started. I have immense respect for what he accomplished. I would argue all day long with him on certain topics, but probably we wouldn't taking about that; I'd be way too busy picking his brains about how he made "Tomb of Horrors."

 

[Steampunkette]

I am -so- sick and tired of the human side of this. Of people trying, over and over, to whitewash things and make it shiny and clean without the bumps and warts along the way.

We need the dwarven side of things. Goblin. Tiefling. ANYTHING but the human side, damn it!

 

[OptionalRule]

I am -so- sick and tired of the human side of this. Of people trying, over and over, to whitewash things and make it shiny and clean without the bumps and warts along the way.

We need the dwarven side of things. Goblin. Tiefling. ANYTHING but the human side, damn it!

Is it really a TTRPG topic if you can't make anthropomorphis soft porn art for it?

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Though I am not religious, it brings to mind the quote "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, understood as a child, and thought as a child. When I became a man, I put away childish things."

It had less to do with childish things and more with the culture of the time. The slurs referring to homosexuals were out there but no one was willing to explain it, it was literally a thing not spoken of directly. Hell, people did not speak of straight sex openly and the country went from that to discussing anti-discrimination in a very short time.

 

[Hatmatter]

I wrote something today after watching Tim Cain's (Fallout, Troika) recent video about Temple of Elemental Evil being left out of Art & Arcana. Between that and our ongoing discussions about Gary's legacy, and given a lot of the discussions online and on EN World, I've been thinking a lot about how we remember the actual people who built this hobby.

The Human Side of D&D History: Reflecting on How We Remember Our Creators

Quick TLDR highlights:

• Tim's story about literally cutting up his personal ToEE module to share with his dev team
• How Gary was less "internet celebrity" and more "D&D fan's pen pal" in the early days
• The contrast between creators as real people vs. internet talking points
• Why veteran gamers might be defensive of Gary (hint: we actually met him!)
• The irony of defending creators against AI while reducing them to memes

Not trying to start another flame war about Gary or WotC - just hoping we can talk about the human side of our hobby's history. Some of you oldtimers probably have great convention stories about meeting these folks - would love to hear them.

What do you think? How do we balance honest criticism while remembering these are real people who helped build our hobby?

I met Gary Gygax and had a great conversation with him about fantasy films. He shared his view of some things that I was still thinking about nine or so years later when Fellowship of the Ring hit the theaters. At the time and to this day I treasured the opportunity to meet him. He invited me to play in a game he was running and I instead planned to join him in a second game as I ran off to go to an Ed Greenwood event. That second game never happened, so I also missed an opportunity to play in a game GMed by him.

Honestly, I am not interested in criticism of people. I own the new Making of Original D&D. It's a great book. I don't really read Peterson's work as being critical of Gygax as much as establishing a context, which any writer does.

 

[OptionalRule]

It had less to do with childish things and more with the culture of the time. The slurs referring to homosexuals were out there but no one was willing to explain it, it was literally a thing not spoken of directly. Hell, people did not speak straight sex openly and the country went from that to discussing anti-discrimination in a very short time.

True, a lot of change in a generation. I'm not sure I always agree with how people characterize things, but it's been a lot of change regardless. Generally for the better I think.

 

[Rabbitbait]

Do you have a link to that thread? I'd love to see it.

I can't even remember enough about it to be able to search for it.