The "I'm going to get hit no matter what my AC is" philosphy

[Ao the Overkitty]

So true. I prefer humanocentric campaigns with lots of mooks. But still the level 8 players with ACs in the mid twenties are nearly untouchable.

No mooks for us. Reasoning I'm told is it wouldn't be properly challenging and we would not garnish any xp for the night. I think I'm alone in not having a problem with that for a session or two. Course, I'm only an XP whore when I'm within 500 of leveling.

 

[Darklone]

Dragons twice? Sounds like I know where your problem comes from, your DM prefers the "one big baddy monster" approach. In this case AC is chi-fu.

Displacement and hitpoints save your life here.

 

[Ao the Overkitty]

Dragons twice? Sounds like I know where your problem comes from, your DM prefers the "one big baddy monster" approach. In this case AC is chi-fu.

He does a mix of 1 big bad or several almost as powerful bads. There is a reason why we're 10th & 11th level after a year & 1/4 of playing at 1/2 to 3/4 xp and with a large group.

It's bad when he does the 1 big bad, cause those are the ones we ALL have serious problems hitting.

For example, last friday we dealt with an Imp Sorcerer Assassin. While we fought something he had summoned, he studied our ranger. Once the fight was over, he killed our ranger and won init, going invisible again. Cause Mr. Assassin had undetectable alignment, he took out Evil-dar as our primary detection method when dealing with Invisables. Since we had been fighting imps all the way through, our sorcerer was getting low on spell slots high enough to cast her glitterdust so couldn't blanket the room looking for him. Only thing we had left was my Detect Thoughts spell (thankfully made my spell failure chance). It doesn't detect location of an invisible person, but they'll show up as being within the spell for number of minds. By some careful moving, we were able to deduce he was either going after me or my cohort (we brought the other Paladin along for healing and whapping). My cohort made his save vs the death attack and we were able to keep the assassin busy and visible with grappling and glitterdusts. He kept dispelling the glitterdusts, but it was at least burning his turns. This bought the ranger enough time to return to life and slay the Assassin.

But, those imp flunkies were no pushovers. They had levels of sorcerer as well and had dodge & mobility, so had ACs of 28 or 32, depending on whether they were moving or not. Add their true strike spells and ability to go invis at will to the equation explains why we took a lot time to clear them out (lots of trips to the medics).

 

[Al]

The two problems with the 'hit points are my AC' are rogues and Power Attack.

Rogues, if they can manoevre for a sneak-attack, dish out considerably more damage than regular fighters at high level. Whilst a tank fighter might deal some 20 points per hit (2d6 greatsword + 2 ws + 9 str + 2 magic) and a sword-and-shield fighter even less, the rogue at 11th level can deal coming on for 30 (d6 short sword + 6d6 sneak + 2 magic + 2 str). Where the rogue falls down is that his attacks are less likely to hit...low ACs are invitation for serious sneak attack damage. Against the deadly two-weapon rogues, you could be hit for some 100 points per round with a low AC.

The other problem is (particularly two-handed) Power Attack- potentially even worse with Complete Warrior (frenzied berserkers, Combat Brute style feat, favoured power attack) which can see 1 for 3 (or more) trade-offs. Hit points are decent shock absorbers, but when you get +10 Power Attacks from two-handed weapon they are quickly taken down.

It all depends on what you're fighting. Against magic-using opponents, hit points are a better defense than AC. Against sword-and-shield fighters and non-Power Attack using monsters, it's a fair substitution. Your problem is against rogues (particularly dual-wielding ones) and Power Attackers (especially two-handed).

 

[Darklone]

Level 10 heros without Anti-invisibility tactics? Urghs.

 

[Ao the Overkitty]

Level 10 heros without Anti-invisibility tactics? Urghs.

That's an area we're weak in. We wouldn't trade our sorcerer for anything, since she is very useful and stocks a nice variety of spells (only 3 of which are attack spells, though you could argue that Dimension Door is an attack spell as well). But, with her being our only true spellcaster, we're lacking several defense spells like Invisiblity Purge.

Her glitterdust is usually a good way to deal with invisbility, but that major battle was at the end of a long day in which she was low on spells from lots of glitterdusts (damn imps).

 

[Numion]

When min/maxing your character it's worth noting that +1 to AC equals about +5% to your hit points. In general the addition of +1 to AC means that 1 in 20 strikes that would normally hit, actually miss. So you'll lose 5% less HPs. Which is about the same as if you had +5% HPs.

So, one shouldn't forfeit AC in favor of HPs. In addition, very low ACs will get you in trouble with Power Attacking monsters. The situation "They'll hit me anyway" will soon change into "They'll hit me anyway .. for a world of hurt!"

 

[ashockney]

Interesting thread. This very topic came up in our own (lvl 9) 3.5Ed game the last time we played. It gets a little more challenging, because the character was doing a defensive "tank" build, along the lines of dwarven defender, high magic full plate, high magic steel shield, choosing to use one handed melee weapon, and big hit points to back it up. The player also fully uses cover/concealment whenever possible, however, noted that as a DM, I'll typically be sure to mix up the "creatures" they will likely encounter, and always seem to ensure that there's some big muscle in the group who can hit his 31+ AC (I think it can see as high as 39 with expertise, etc). This tactic, he argues, negates his effectiveness.

I countered with the fact that as a tank, he'll be far better positioned to deal with multiple attack routines.

He wasn't buying it, and switched characters to a dragon disciple/monk/sorcerer. He also enjoys a character with more versatility. Interestingly enough, the new character is also pretty reliant on a good AC to stay alive, however he has many more options (through the monk/spells combo), and isn't considered the tank.

I think an interesting point here is that the way the "high end attack bonuses" line up, it's difficult to do an effective character build on "defense".

 

[Bauglir]

When min/maxing your character it's worth noting that +1 to AC equals about +5% to your hit points. In general the addition of +1 to AC means that 1 in 20 strikes that would normally hit, actually miss. So you'll lose 5% less HPs. Which is about the same as if you had +5% HPs.

So, one shouldn't forfeit AC in favor of HPs. In addition, very low ACs will get you in trouble with Power Attacking monsters. The situation "They'll hit me anyway" will soon change into "They'll hit me anyway .. for a world of hurt!"

This only applies over the range where the AC is between 1 and 20 points higher than the attacker's attack bonus. In the (quite frequent at high levels) cases where the attacker's attack bonus actually exceeds the target's AC (ie needs a 2 to hit) an extra point of AC has no direct effect at all. Hit points on the other hand, always provide a tangible benefit.

 

[WizarDru]

As the levels creep higher, pure AC becomes less and less meaningful...for the first iterative attack. Remember that all attacks have a flat 5% chance of hitting, regardless of AC....which is one reason that hit points play a factor in your survival. At high levels, as has been mentioned, miss chance effects and other defenses become more valuable...things like mirror image, displacement, blur and blink all become vitally important, as a 50% miss chance saves a lot of pain.

D&D's primary metaphor is 'eggs with hammers'. Most monsters cannot stand up to the punishment they can deliver...by design. Factor in the concept of attacking to aid, charging, haste, flanking and other effects, and you can see AC playing a factor, but not dominating, as it gets whitled down while BAB gets pumped up. Assuming standard D&D, healing magic is quick and plentiful, so high hit points really translates into consistent action: that is, how often you can continue to engage in combat without pulling back for safety. A high-HP fighter that can take an extra round to attack is more likely to win...and his chances increase dramatically if he has a cleric near by to heal him.

The situation then becomes one of either a) Don't get hit at all or b)survive a single volley, and then put them down before they can repeat the process. Spellcasters favor the former, melee fighters the latter. A wizard with a shield, blur and mirror image is just attempting to avoid taking pain altogether, while the fighter with fortified armor and a ring of blur is just going to turn around and show that rogue that he should have gotten away while he had the chance. At higher levels, you assume you'll be hit, and factor that it into your tactics.