The Immortals Handbook

[CRGreathouse]

If someone can convince me that the reach of a 75 mile tall giant should be 1.5 miles then I'll be happy to change my approach to Reach/Space.

I don't think it should be 1.5 miles, but neither do I see a need for changing the S/R of MM creatures, which work quite well in general.

 

[Zoatebix]

I wasn't saying your method was complicated, I was saying that adjusting a creature's reach based on the size of the thing it's attacking was complicated. It's complicated for even more of the reasons you mentioned - a stomp attack would work in reverse - you'd have a longer reach with a stomp attack than you would with a slam against smaller creatures. The reach of the stomp will get shorter as the target creature increases in size and as you have to raise your leg higher, until eventually you can no longer stomp the creature according to the rules of your stomp attack.

I was saying it'd be too complicated to add too much common sense to reach, because you'd have different reaches for all of a creature's natural attacks based on the creature's phisiology and the size of the opponent. I was critiquing my own silly line of reasoning.

Okay - would Colossal (tall) creatures really have a "footprint" equal to their space in 5x5 squares? I think the actual footprint is smaller than the Space (even at the wonky upper end) for tall creatures, and larger than Space for most long creatures above... maybe huge? I think the rules make up for this a little bit because of the fact that smaller creatures (what is it, 2 categories? 3 categories?) can stand in their "space" no problem, and that the large creatuire can hit little things that are standing in their space with no problem. I wish I had a rules reference here to look up this stuff...

I dunno - this seems like a pretty fuzzy problem. A medium (and especially a small)-sized creature's footprint is much smaller than a 5 foot square - so part of what's really a creature's reach is counted for in it's space. I still think that 1.5 miles sounds totally wrong, though.

This is what I get for having a decent idea when I'm just coming down from a fever... Hopefully someone can sort out this mess of a post. Sorry!
-George

 

[Roman]

Hey U_K! Long time no see! As I expected the Immortals Handbook is not finished yet, but I am glad to see that the delays have not forced you to give up on the project. In any case, if you don't mind I have a few questions for you.

From: Conversion Table 1: Divine Rank Comparisons

Divine Ranks:

Proxies (Undergods)
Disciple
Prophet

Immortals (Gods)
Hero-deity
Quasi-deity
Demi-deity
Lesser Deity
Intermediate Deity
Greater Deity

Sidereals (Overgods)
Elder One
Old One
First One

Eternals
Time Lord
High Lord

Supernals
Supreme Being

Akasha
Akashic Records

Interesting hierarchy, but how can there be something more powerful (I have no idea what Akasha means) than the Supreme Being, which after all is by definition... supreme (and hence probably though not necessarily omnipotent)!?!?

Also, could you please briefly describe each of the above divine ranks, so as to give us an idea of the respective power of each rank? Thanks!

Last but not least, I love your CR system's consistency and how well defined it makes everything related to CR. Would it be possible, however, to elucidate how you arrived at the numbers that you did with respect to balance. For example, you state that equipment at the suggested wealth level makes up 20% of the CR of characters, so I am wondering how you arrived at that number. I mean it does seem balance, but looking 'behind the scenes' so to speak, would be nice.

 

[Fieari]

I think I can answer one of those questions, being a long time follower of this thread. You have to understand what the Akashic Records ARE. The Akashic Records are, in fact, everything. The Supreme Being is a subset of the Akashic Records. Everything the Supreme Being does is written down, and without it being written down, it didn't happen.

The thing about Akashic records is that no one IS an Akashic. It's not a personal kind of force. But you can do things TO the Akashic records... if you can get past the "librarians". Of course, a Supreme Being should have no trouble at all dealing with librarians, since by definition, the Supreme Being is more powerful than said librarians. So the Supreme Being can go ahead and start tinkering with the library holding the Records... but remember, the records here are what holds the power we're talking about, and if the Supreme Being wasn't careful, maybe some lesser power could slip into the library, sneak past the librarians somehow, and change that Supreme Being him/herself...

That's how it works, to my understanding.

See: I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library

For a picture of what the Akashic Records are like.

 

[Roman]

I think I can answer one of those questions, being a long time follower of this thread. You have to understand what the Akashic Records ARE. The Akashic Records are, in fact, everything. The Supreme Being is a subset of the Akashic Records. Everything the Supreme Being does is written down, and without it being written down, it didn't happen.

The thing about Akashic records is that no one IS an Akashic. It's not a personal kind of force. But you can do things TO the Akashic records... if you can get past the "librarians". Of course, a Supreme Being should have no trouble at all dealing with librarians, since by definition, the Supreme Being is more powerful than said librarians. So the Supreme Being can go ahead and start tinkering with the library holding the Records... but remember, the records here are what holds the power we're talking about, and if the Supreme Being wasn't careful, maybe some lesser power could slip into the library, sneak past the librarians somehow, and change that Supreme Being him/herself...

That's how it works, to my understanding.

See: I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library

For a picture of what the Akashic Records are like.

Interesting - so Akashic Records are basically the information behind the universe (I should probably say multiverse) and detail everything. Now it makes sense. Where does the term 'Akashic/Akasha' come from?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

I'm feeling a lot better today. Hurrah!

I don't think it should be 1.5 miles,

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it dude!

Surely its obvious that the 1.5 mile reach is wrong (correct?) and as such we can state with some authority that the official treatment for reach is clearly broken.

but neither do I see a need for changing the S/R of MM creatures, which work quite well in general.

Well I'm certainly not going to ask people to change them. But in the Immortals Handbook

One other (even simpler) way you could handle Reach/Space is just by a generic figure for each size, however one which doubles every time.

eg.
Medium = 5
Large = 10
Huge = 20
Garg = 40
Colossal = 80
Titanic = 160
Macro-Fine = 320

Use the previous category for Long creatures and vice versa for Space.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Zoatebix mate!

I wasn't saying your method was complicated, I was saying that adjusting a creature's reach based on the size of the thing it's attacking was complicated.

Exactly which is why its crazy to assume thats how the official rules work.

It's complicated for even more of the reasons you mentioned - a stomp attack would work in reverse - you'd have a longer reach with a stomp attack than you would with a slam against smaller creatures.

Exactly, which is why Pythagoras isn't a game designer, even if he was instrumental in creating d4s.

The reach of the stomp will get shorter as the target creature increases in size and as you have to raise your leg higher, until eventually you can no longer stomp the creature according to the rules of your stomp attack.

The 'reach' for the stomp attack will never change, you simply can't use it on creatures of a certain size (unless they are prone).

I was saying it'd be too complicated to add too much common sense to reach, because you'd have different reaches for all of a creature's natural attacks based on the creature's phisiology and the size of the opponent. I was critiquing my own silly line of reasoning.

Indeed. What do you think of my new (even simpler) system of reach? See previous post.

Okay - would Colossal (tall) creatures really have a "footprint" equal to their space in 5x5 squares?

I know that the 75 mile tall giant would have a footprint of about 12 miles, making its 1.5 mile reach insane.

I think the actual footprint is smaller than the Space (even at the wonky upper end) for tall creatures,

Nope. The 75 mile tall creature would supposedly have a Space of 1 mile, despite the fact that its footprint alone would cover about 75 square miles.

and larger than Space for most long creatures above... maybe huge?

Not sure if this makes sense?

I think the rules make up for this a little bit because of the fact that smaller creatures (what is it, 2 categories? 3 categories?) can stand in their "space" no problem, and that the large creatuire can hit little things that are standing in their space with no problem. I wish I had a rules reference here to look up this stuff...

The fact that Colossal Creatures can't even fit within their own 'Space' is not a feature of Space/Reach, but simply illustrates a flaw in the system.

I dunno - this seems like a pretty fuzzy problem.

Clear as crystal if you ask me.

A medium (and especially a small)-sized creature's footprint is much smaller than a 5 foot square - so part of what's really a creature's reach is counted for in it's space. I still think that 1.5 miles sounds totally wrong, though.

This is what I get for having a decent idea when I'm just coming down from a fever...

You too! I hope I didn't smit you.

Hopefully someone can sort out this mess of a post. Sorry!
-George

I admit this post was an adventure in itself.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K! Long time no see!

Hiya Roman mate!

I trust you have been keeping well?

As I expected the Immortals Handbook is not finished yet,

*cough*

but I am glad to see that the delays have not forced you to give up on the project.

No surrender.

In any case, if you don't mind I have a few questions for you.

Fire away.

From: Conversion Table 1: Divine Rank Comparisons

Divine Ranks:

*SNIP*

Interesting hierarchy,

Thanks.

but how can there be something more powerful (I have no idea what Akasha means) than the Supreme Being, which after all is by definition... supreme (and hence probably though not necessarily omnipotent)!?!?

The easiest way of explaining the difference is that the Supreme Being is the Will and the Akashic Records are the Way.

Also, could you please briefly describe each of the above divine ranks,

Yes indeed I could, but I'm not going to, thats what the Immortals Handbook is for.

so as to give us an idea of the respective power of each rank? Thanks!

Well the respective power for the Immortal Ranks is similar (though not identical) to how such ranks are portrayed within Deities & Demigods.

Last but not least, I love your CR system's consistency and how well defined it makes everything related to CR. Would it be possible, however, to elucidate how you arrived at the numbers that you did with respect to balance.

The initial equation CR x2 = EL +4 was derived from the relationship between Level and Experience Points. I was doing some heavy brainstorming (I have about 10,000 pages of notes, scribbles and doodles for the IH) and wanted to work a method for determining the Experience Points Totals for any level. Something just clicked while I was looking at the numbers and I wondered if the true CR/EL relationship paralleled EXP/Level, and te more I researched the matter, the more it looked like it did.

For example, you state that equipment at the suggested wealth level makes up 20% of the CR of characters, so I am wondering how you arrived at that number. I mean it does seem balance, but looking 'behind the scenes' so to speak, would be nice.

Well, as Sherlock Holmes would say, once you have eliminated all other options, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer.

What was initially needed were the building blocks of HD/Levels themselves. I chose feats as my guideline, since they showed which bonuses were more potent.

I started with the theory that five feats were equal to one level and therefore one feat was equal to 1/5 (0.2) level*.

*Later proved wrong by the silver rule which showed each feat was worth 0.17 level.

After I had broken all monster HD and core class levels down into feats, I worked out the statistical average bonuses that would be given by magic items at 20th level, and simply converted that into feats.

 

[Verequus]

Hi UK!

Glad to hear, that you are feeling better!

My short interruption - you seem to have forgotten to write everything in this quote:

Well I'm certainly not going to ask people to change them. But in the Immortals Handbook

One other (even simpler) way you could handle Reach/Space is just by a generic figure for each size, however one which doubles every time.

Also, if a creatures don't fit into their own space, how has the system to be fixed?

And to Roman:
Hey, why didn't you have said anything, that you knew already of the Immortals Handbook, as soon as I've send you the RC-candidate of the CR-system? I can't remember all the people who posted in this thread.

 

[Roman]

Hi UK!

Glad to hear, that you are feeling better!

My short interruption - you seem to have forgotten to write everything in this quote:


Also, if a creatures don't fit into their own space, how has the system to be fixed?

And to Roman:
Hey, why didn't you have said anything, that you knew already of the Immortals Handbook, as soon as I've send you the RC-candidate of the CR-system? I can't remember all the people who posted in this thread.

I knew of the Immortals Handbook, but I did not know of the version of the CR system you sent me, so I was grateful you have done so. I was not posting in this thread for some time.