The Immortals Handbook

[Rhuarc]

Hiya mate!



There is a useful website on Thanos here:

http://thanos.crowfans.com/thanos.html

I've found exactely this one

 

[historian]

To be perfectly fair, Thanos did correct the flaw in the universe, it's just that doing so necessitated destroying the universe and then re-making it, exactly as it was, from scratch; a process that took all of Thanos's power after becoming the Heart of the Universe. Luckily for him, that also included remaking himself as well (without that power).


That said, I found it interesting that Thanos kept making veiled allusions that the being who previously had that much power (how and where were left nebulous) was, in fact, God; but also that God could not (or would not; presumably because of the price involved in power expenditure) correct the flaw in the universe, and so deliberately manipulated Thanos into doing so.

I hear you, my only point was that a truly omnipotent being (if such a state of being can logically exist) wouldn't have exhausted all of its/his power by re-making either the universe or multiverse (at least I don't think so).

That said, I do believe that HOU Thanos was at a level of power that was categorically higher than even LT.

I prefer to think of it that true omnipotence, in the most literal sense of the word, doesn't exist. There's just being who have such vast amounts of power that, on our measurement abilities, it becomes hard to see how they aren't all-powerful (to each other, though, the differences would be clear). Just imagine how the amoeba thinks of us (we'd be human Celestials).

You could be absolutely right, and this seems a reasonable way to think about this.

 

[historian]

Howdy Krust!

I have an idea that I wanted to run by you:

Despite any testimonial (verbal) evidence to the contrary (such as suggesting that the HOU was the full-on power of GOD) would it be plausible to posit a theory that it may be merely an artifact created by or removed from a truly omnipotent source (like the eye of Vecna)?

Moreover, do you think that beings like "The Brothers' or heck, even the HOU (to the extent it was sentient) are merely avatars?

Thanks in advance dude.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Krust!

Hiya mate!

I have an idea that I wanted to run by you:

Fire away.

Despite any testimonial (verbal) evidence to the contrary (such as suggesting that the HOU was the full-on power of GOD) would it be plausible to posit a theory that it may be merely an artifact created by or removed from a truly omnipotent source (like the eye of Vecna)?

Given that the HOU wasn't sentient itself it is plausible to assume it was a construct of sorts.

Moreover, do you think that beings like "The Brothers' or heck, even the HOU (to the extent it was sentient) are merely avatars?

I never liked that whole 'Brothers' fiasco for a number of reasons (though weren't their shenanigans retconned to the extent that Speccy and Tribs just let them think they were the most powerful beings in the multiverse?). How the heck can they say the Spectre is the equal of the Living Tribunal!? The whole idea is ludicrous.

As for the idea of those types being mere Avatars. In the shadow of an actual 'Supreme Being' technically everything is an Avatar; given that they would be 'everything'.

 

[Alzrius]

If Thanos was only the 'GOD' of a single reality then why did he have any power over the Tribunal - who judges all realities?

Just curious, where are you getting the idea that the Living Tribunal judges all realities from? Because, as we've seen, that clearly isn't the case. Although this is stretching it a bit, we've seen that, for example, the DC universe is another reality, and the Living Tribunal certainly has no sway there (notwithstanding the various crossovers which purport that Marvel Earth and DC Earth are one and the same).

It's always risky to include crossovers in this sort of thing, but that said, The Brothers seem to knock the Living Tribunal down in terms of power scale...and yet, each of them is the "god" of their respective (Marvel and DC) universes, and no other. Honestly, it seems like the entire thing with the Living Tribunal can be solved if we ditch the bit about him being the judge of all realities everywhere.

As an aside, didn't even the Living Tribunal admit (in word or deed) that his power was dwarfed by Molecule Man's? A friend told me this.

In terms of the Heart of the Universe being the literal power of God...this is tricky, because we've seen examples of quite a few beings/instances that could have been God. Thanos once said that the Infinity Gems were the last remnants of a supreme unique being, that had all power, but existed utterly alone, and chose to end itself for that reason, with it's power surviving in the form of the six gems. And yet, despite them being the power of a supposedly omnipotent being, they were dwarfed by the Heart of the Universe.

Likewise, each of the Brothers was said to be "God", basically, for their respective universes.

I think one possible solution is that we may not be giving total credit where credit is due on the subject of the spherical reality that the Marvel universe is housed in (the one Adam Warlock saw in the Infinity Abyss saga). This is not just the physical summation of the singular Marvel universe...rather, it encompasses the entirety of Marvel reality! Not just the universe, but every dimension, every parallel universe, everything not produced by another comics company, in other words (those companies' works would be other spherical realities in the vortex between the white infinity above and the black abyss at the bottom). Hence, the multiple realities that the Living Tribunal judged could all have been within that singular sphere...and Thanos annihilated it all...that would seem to correct the power imbalance also.

I never liked that whole 'Brothers' fiasco for a number of reasons (though weren't their shenanigans retconned to the extent that Speccy and Tribs just let them think they were the most powerful beings in the multiverse?).

Eh? Where did you hear that?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Alzrius mate!

Just curious, where are you getting the idea that the Living Tribunal judges all realities from?

1. Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe entry:

"...and whose fuction is to safeguard the multiverse (the continuum of alternate universes) from an imbalance of mystical forces."

2. What If #34, Korvac hadn't died - the Tribunal states that he has multiple realities to judge.

3. The Infinity Gauntlet was powerless against him - and we know it was tied to a single reality.

4. The Living Tribunal can destroy a Universe. Obviously if he was of the one universe that wouldn't make much sense would it.

Because, as we've seen, that clearly isn't the case. Although this is stretching it a bit, we've seen that, for example, the DC universe is another reality, and the Living Tribunal certainly has no sway there (notwithstanding the various crossovers which purport that Marvel Earth and DC Earth are one and the same).

I think it would be pompous for Marvel characters to lord it over rival publishers universes, so whether that was the case or not it simply wasn't going to happen.

Though, perhaps in the DC Universe the Tribunal looks like the Spectre?

It's always risky to include crossovers in this sort of thing, but that said, The Brothers seem to knock the Living Tribunal down in terms of power scale...and yet, each of them is the "god" of their respective (Marvel and DC) universes, and no other. Honestly, it seems like the entire thing with the Living Tribunal can be solved if we ditch the bit about him being the judge of all realities everywhere.

Why would we ditch something thats intrinsic to him though. Thats the whole point of the character.

As an aside, didn't even the Living Tribunal admit (in word or deed) that his power was dwarfed by Molecule Man's? A friend told me this.

Obviously that was pre-retconned Beyonder/Cosmic Cube when the Beyonders power was supposedly limitless, but we later find out a lot of it was illusionary.

In terms of the Heart of the Universe being the literal power of God...this is tricky, because we've seen examples of quite a few beings/instances that could have been God. Thanos once said that the Infinity Gems were the last remnants of a supreme unique being, that had all power, but existed utterly alone, and chose to end itself for that reason, with it's power surviving in the form of the six gems. And yet, despite them being the power of a supposedly omnipotent being, they were dwarfed by the Heart of the Universe.

Exactly. The Infinity Gems represented the power of the Supreme Being of a single reality. Whereas the HOU represented the Supreme Being of all realities. At least thats what seems logical to me; of course I could be wrong.

Likewise, each of the Brothers was said to be "God", basically, for their respective universes.

Many bandy the word about but only Thanos w. HOU can realistically lay claim to the title with any meaning.

I think one possible solution is that we may not be giving total credit where credit is due on the subject of the spherical reality that the Marvel universe is housed in (the one Adam Warlock saw in the Infinity Abyss saga). This is not just the physical summation of the singular Marvel universe...rather, it encompasses the entirety of Marvel reality! Not just the universe, but every dimension, every parallel universe, everything not produced by another comics company, in other words (those companies' works would be other spherical realities in the vortex between the white infinity above and the black abyss at the bottom). Hence, the multiple realities that the Living Tribunal judged could all have been within that singular sphere...and Thanos annihilated it all...that would seem to correct the power imbalance also.

It think it would be easy to debate for weeks the existential nature of the Marvel Universe. However, its obvious we don't have enough evidence at this time to resolve the matter beyond the purely subjective (unless someone knows Jim Starlins email address).

We could hypothesise that the Tribunal only governs the continuum of the Marvel sphere - however given that the alternate realities of that sphere are themselves infinite; in one of them Captain America could be called Batman and Thor could be called Superman.

Eh? Where did you hear that?

Over at Superherochat. I don't know the validity of it though.

 

[Rhuarc]

Hi,

one question about the HOU. Could someone please explain me where Thanos finds it and how learned about it? Cannot find an answer at several sites...
And I find it strange that only Thanos ever discovers and gets such ultimate power (from the Cosmic Cube, the Infinity Gauntlet and the HOU).
Mephisto for example wanted the Gauntlet in the past, too. Why haven't he took the gems earlier? He is strong enough to accomplish that for sure.
Or similar powerful and evil cosmic beings. Aren't they striving for might or destruction?
Thanks in advance

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi,

Hey Rhuarc mate!

one question about the HOU. Could someone please explain me where Thanos finds it and how learned about it? Cannot find an answer at several sites...

Aliens from a group called the Celestial Order kidnap Pharoah Akhenaten (sp? from memory) in 1000 BC (or somesuch) and he spends 3000 years learning to absorb energy from the HOU. Akhenaten then returns and claims Earth for himself killing those who get in his way. Thanos leads a strike team to teh source of the power onboard the alien mothership - however the team are outmatched, but Thanos jumps into the Heart of the Universe and because of his experience with omnipotence is able to survive the transition...

And I find it strange that only Thanos ever discovers and gets such ultimate power (from the Cosmic Cube, the Infinity Gauntlet and the HOU).

Well Thanos is one of the few with the will and the means and the guile to achieve that sort of thing - and even he was only able to hold on to that sort of power for a short time.

Mephisto for example wanted the Gauntlet in the past, too. Why haven't he took the gems earlier? He is strong enough to accomplish that for sure.

I don't agree that he has the determination and willpower to risk 'everything' in that pursuit as is/was Thanos.

Or similar powerful and evil cosmic beings. Aren't they striving for might or destruction?

No. Beings intrinsically linked to the cosmos know their place within that universe. They have no individuality as such - even Galactus is driven by his hunger rather than any desire for conquest. Only individuals who are not 'part' of the cosmos generally have such desires.

 

[Rhuarc]

Hey Rhuarc mate!


Aliens from a group called the Celestial Order kidnap Pharoah Akhenaten (sp? from memory) in 1000 BC (or somesuch) and he spends 3000 years learning to absorb energy from the HOU. Akhenaten then returns and claims Earth for himself killing those who get in his way. Thanos leads a strike team to teh source of the power onboard the alien mothership - however the team are outmatched, but Thanos jumps into the Heart of the Universe and because of his experience with omnipotence is able to survive the transition...

Thanks for the help

I don't agree that he has the determination and willpower to risk 'everything' in that pursuit as is/was Thanos.

Well, I've not read any of the comics or have detailed information about the story, but what I've read from the Thanos website he had not that great problems to get the infinity gems from their former owners. So Mephisto wouldn't had to risk 'everything' to get the ultimate power. But of course I could be wrong

No. Beings intrinsically linked to the cosmos know their place within that universe. They have no individuality as such - even Galactus is driven by his hunger rather than any desire for conquest. Only individuals who are not 'part' of the cosmos generally have such desires.

Ah, that's a good explanation. Thanks

 

[Kavon]

Hey U_K

Any news for us waiting folk?