The Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Rulemaster mate!

I am on now - I can hear you but I am having difficult with my microphone (obviously). I'll see if I can sort it out within the next ten minutes. If not I'll have to get some professional help on the problem later on in the week.

Okay I just did the call back test and couldn't hear my own voice, so its clear theres a problem with the microphone my end.

 

[Verequus]

It could have been on my side - I had some audio programs open, which blocked my headset's ear phones... Should have tested that before.

Edit: As I found out, the audio streams don't change the speakers, if I only plug the headset in - restarting is the solution. So nothing has been blocked. And again we have become wiser.

 

[Zuoken]

One small question for you Upper_Krust, and I apologize if it has been asked/answered before, but 63 pages is a lot to sift through. You should be proud to have one of the largest threads on the boards!

On to my question: Do you plan on including stats for Jormungand, the World Serpent, in the Immortal's Handbook, or any of your upcoming PDF's?

Also, what would you rate him as?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Zuoken!

One small question for you Upper_Krust, and I apologize if it has been asked/answered before, but 63 pages is a lot to sift through.

No need to apologise mate.

You should be proud to have one of the largest threads on the boards!

I'd have my own boards on the website if ezboard could be paid using paypal. But it looks like I am just going to be cursed with having to get a credit card, which won't happen until after the bestiary goes on sale.

On to my question: Do you plan on including stats for Jormungand, the World Serpent, in the Immortal's Handbook, or any of your upcoming PDF's?

Yes he will be in the Immortals Index: Norse Mythology pdf.

Also, what would you rate him as?

Well, he would be as powerful as a Greater Power. While not actually part of the Pantheon 'per se' each individual Pantheon has (at least) three major threats: beings equal to an Elder One (Pantheon Destroyer/Cosmic twin), Greater Power (Dragon/Cosmic umbilical) and Intermediate Power (God-slayer/Cosmic afterbirth).

An example of these threats in Norse mythology would be Surtur, Jormungand and Fenris.

In the Mesopotamian Pantheon: Apsu, Tiamat and Kingu etc.

 

[historian]

Well, he would be as powerful as a Greater Power. While not actually part of the Pantheon 'per se' each individual Pantheon has (at least) three major threats: beings equal to an Elder One (Pantheon Destroyer/Cosmic twin), Greater Power (Dragon/Cosmic umbilical) and Intermediate Power (God-slayer/Cosmic afterbirth).

Man, that sounds sweet. The symmetry that's emerging is impressive.

Incidentally, I'm stoked as I was able to buy hard copy versions of the 1st ed. Monster Manuals I&II, DMG and Legends and Lore. I never played 1st ed., and its interesting in that, unlike in 3e or 3.5e there is a good bit of "reading between the lines" required. I also noticed that Demogorgon, while having cool psionic and spell casting abilities, is a bit weak on the melee offensive (for some reason this stood out to me). He should mop the floor with 'run of the mill' characters, but I don't think he would match up well at all with most of the intermediate deities (and certain demi-deities) in Legends & Lore.

I found the conversion guidelines on your site enlightening as well. I'm also tinkering with converting cosmic characters from Classic Marvel over to 1st ed. as well using a FASERIP/40 formula to approximate HD in 1st ed 9which incidentally would give Marvel's Surtur 183 HD, probably too many for an elder, so I divided by 1.5 and stuck with that).

Just letting you know that your content is already coming in handy.

 

[historian]

Well, he would be as powerful as a Greater Power. While not actually part of the Pantheon 'per se' each individual Pantheon has (at least) three major threats: beings equal to an Elder One (Pantheon Destroyer/Cosmic twin), Greater Power (Dragon/Cosmic umbilical) and Intermediate Power (God-slayer/Cosmic afterbirth).

Man, that sounds sweet. The symmetry that's emerging is impressive.

Incidentally, I'm stoked as I was able to buy hard copy versions of the 1st ed. Monster Manuals I&II, DMG and Legends and Lore. I never played 1st ed., and its interesting in that, unlike in 3e or 3.5e there is a good bit of "reading between the lines" required. I also noticed that Demogorgon, while having cool psionic and spell casting abilities, is a bit weak on the melee offensive (for some reason this stood out to me). He should mop the floor with 'run of the mill' characters, but I don't think he would match up well at all with most of the intermediate deities (and certain demi-deities) in Legends & Lore.

I found the conversion guidelines on your site enlightening as well. I'm also tinkering with converting cosmic characters from Classic Marvel over to 1st ed. as well using a FASERIP/40 formula to approximate HD in 1st ed (which incidentally would give Marvel's Surtur 183 HD, probably too many for an elder, so I divided by 1.5 and stuck with that).

Just letting you know that your content is already coming in handy.

 

[historian]

Double post . . . sorry.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi historian mate!

Man, that sounds sweet. The symmetry that's emerging is impressive.

Incidentally, I'm stoked as I was able to buy hard copy versions of the 1st ed. Monster Manuals I&II, DMG and Legends and Lore.

Try and get hold of 1st ed. Manual of the Planes too if you are able, it has a lot of great stuff in it.

I never played 1st ed., and its interesting in that, unlike in 3e or 3.5e there is a good bit of "reading between the lines" required.

Yes, it can sometimes require you to fill in the blanks.

I also noticed that Demogorgon, while having cool psionic and spell casting abilities, is a bit weak on the melee offensive (for some reason this stood out to me).

Indeed. I think part of the problem is that most of the characters didn't have listed ability scores. I remember in our campaign that S'mon gave Demogorgon 25 strength.

He should mop the floor with 'run of the mill' characters, but I don't think he would match up well at all with most of the intermediate deities (and certain demi-deities) in Legends & Lore.

Hes up there with a weak Lesser Power maybe (assuming you give him all the Lesser Power abilities listed in the back of the 1st Ed. Manual of the Planes.

I found the conversion guidelines on your site enlightening as well.

Glad they are working for you.

I read over some of the Dicefreaks Gates of Hell stuff (and I must say I was impressed) and they seem to inflate the likes of the Dukes of Hell about two divine status higher than where I would place them - my own conversion system places them exactly where they were in 1st Ed.

However the Dicefreaks method is interesting because it sets up a Hellish Pantheon that tops out on a par with other Pantheons. I'm presuming they are going to have Asmodeus as a Greater Power?

The anachronism with this approach is that it means the Pantheon of the Devils will significantly outweigh any other pantheon since its going to have close to 100 effective Lesser Powers (The Dukes of Hell). Of course theres no reason why such Pantheons have to be roughly equal - although to me it makes more sense that way so thats what I run with.

If anyone hasn't checked out the Dicefreaks Gates of Hell material yet I would definately recommend it.

I'm also tinkering with converting cosmic characters from Classic Marvel over to 1st ed. as well using a FASERIP/40 formula to approximate HD in 1st ed 9which incidentally would give Marvel's Surtur 183 HD, probably too many for an elder, so I divided by 1.5 and stuck with that).

I think I divide FASERIP by 20 to get the Challenge Rating. Galactus becomes about CR 357, Odin CR 216 (which is only slightly higher than where I have him).

However some stats are somewhat inflated. For example Surtur probably should only have Shift-Z/500 strength and Class 1000 Psyche. Giving him a CR of 245 (rather than 360+).

Converting the Marvel Thor is of course a different matter.

Just letting you know that your content is already coming in handy.

Glad it helps you dude.

 

[historian]

Hey Krust.

Try and get hold of 1st ed. Manual of the Planes too if you are able, it has a lot of great stuff in it.

I'll do it. I recently switched cities, and the local gaming store has almost all of the 1st ed. core stuff, and it's all priced at $5 per book.

It's like stealing.

Indeed. I think part of the problem is that most of the characters didn't have listed ability scores. I remember in our campaign that S'mon gave Demogorgon 25 strength.

That makes perfect sense to me. Part of the 1st ed. problem (if its fair to call it that) seems to be that the deities aren't particularly balanced against one another* -- this is easily "fix"-able on a case by case basis though (particularly because the stat blocks are simple). I'm guessing that this was because the designers were only contemplating Deity vs. standard PC encounters.

*As an example, Thor w/Mjolnir does 10d10 damage per hit, while Demogorgon's physical attack (tentacle) maxes out at 1d6 (before strength bonus). Of course, Thor is intended (rightfully) to be more powerful than Demogorgon, and Demogorgon has more variety in special attacks and abilities (but many are next to useless against deities), but rather than having simething like a 1 in 4 chance vs. Thor, it's more like 1 in 150.

Glad they are working for you.

I read over some of the Dicefreaks Gates of Hell stuff (and I must say I was impressed) and they seem to inflate the likes of the Dukes of Hell about two divine status higher than where I would place them - my own conversion system places them exactly where they were in 1st Ed.

However the Dicefreaks method is interesting because it sets up a Hellish Pantheon that tops out on a par with other Pantheons. I'm presuming they are going to have Asmodeus as a Greater Power?

The anachronism with this approach is that it means the Pantheon of the Devils will significantly outweigh any other pantheon since its going to have close to 100 effective Lesser Powers (The Dukes of Hell). Of course theres no reason why such Pantheons have to be roughly equal - although to me it makes more sense that way so thats what I run with.

If anyone hasn't checked out the Dicefreaks Gates of Hell material yet I would definately recommend it.

I'll check it out, thanks.

I think I divide FASERIP by 20 to get the Challenge Rating. Galactus becomes about CR 357, Odin CR 216 (which is only slightly higher than where I have him).

I've been doing that since you told me about it last summer. Because of the 1st ed. focus, I have just been doubling the 20 to 40 to approximate Hit Dice. Not scientifically rigorous, but it's a very good proxy I've found.

However some stats are somewhat inflated. For example Surtur probably should only have Shift-Z/500 strength and Class 1000 Psyche. Giving him a CR of 245 (rather than 360+).

Converting the Marvel Thor is of course a different matter.

The Marvel stats are definitely off in a few places. For instance, Silver Surfer has GOT to be higher than a CR 23 outsider (which is the yield on the FASERIP/20 method).

It seems to work best with characters at Odin's level and above. When I do run into an obvious problem, I use your x1.5, 2, etc. method from the website to reach a happy medium. I think it works well -- using it has yielded a 1st ed. Superman w/79 HD and a 1st ed. Darkseid w/96 HD. That seems about "right on."

Thanks again.

 

[Alzrius]

U_K, just curious about something that may or may not have been mentioned yet.

Are their going to be new materials mentioned in the Immortal's Handbook somewhere? I ask because I just saw the breakdown of the materials in d20 Future over on WotC's site and they're pretty impressive. Armor made of neutronite, for example, would be impressive even before adding magical enhancements.

Btw, thanks for the recommendation about Gates of Hell. I just downloaded it and glanced over the various chapters and all I can say is...damn.