• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 5E The impact of overkill damage

I’ve tried. Didn’t help.
You'll forgive me, but if the extent of your trying is to say the extra attack from GWM wasn't accounted for when it explicitly was (and discussion had about how the extra attack was the vast majority of the small increase GWM had over non-GWM), then there's little hope that any continued effort on my part would result in improved understanding. I mean, I'd at least expect some specific questions rather than saying I didn't do something I clearly did.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

You'll forgive me, but if the extent of your trying is to say the extra attack from GWM wasn't accounted for when it explicitly was (and discussion had about how the extra attack was the vast majority of the small increase GWM had over non-GWM), then there's little hope that any continued effort on my part would result in improved understanding. I mean, I'd at least expect some specific questions rather than saying I didn't do something I clearly did.

So specific question

When you are talking about GWM are you comparing it to an equivalent non GWM fighter (same str and everything)?
 

I did address your issues.

That would take redesigning your simulation model to account for them. You haven't done that. I mean to myself but I haven't done it yet either.

On the hp totals - I used 5th level PCs, and the expected HP ranges I used are built around the hp totals you'd expect to see in CR 6 or lower. They were perfectly reasonable hp ranges to focus on, and they covered a broad spectrum due to the randomness.

In the HP distribution you provided what are your chances for seeing an average hp of each cr of monster? I say it distributes hp to much toward the extremely low CR's for level 5 PC's. But how can we actually discuss this properly without at least working out the answer to the question I proposed just now? So let's establish the answer to this question so we can talk reasonably and logically about your methods.

If I am right and your distribution distributes the hp range too much toward the lower ranges, fixing that will have a big impact on how much overkill damage you are seeing from the sim.

Also, if the last blow ENDS an encounter, overkill is meaningless, but only a small fraction of attacks end an encounter. By my records, the number can be anywhere from an average of 12 in some parties to 40 in others. Other than that, so long as you can get to another target to complete your attack sequence, you get to use it - and it is incredibly rare that PCs are unable to get to the next target.

I don't disagree with the high level point that few attacks end an encounter. I also agree with setting the pc's ability to get to the next enemy at 100% provided there is a next enemy to get to. How meaningful is breaking the fights into encounters though? If you assume your fighter gets all the killing blows (as you did in your sim) then the fighter will only have overkill apply to n-1 of the enemies instead of n enemies.

Which is to say in 1 enemy encounters the overkill effect is reduced to 0%.
In 2 enemy encounters it's reduced to 50% of whatever your sim would have calculated it as.
In 3 enemy encounters it's reduced to 67% of whatever your sim would have calculated it as.
In 4 enemy encounters it's reduced to 75% of whatever your sim would have calculated it as.

I consider 4 enemy encounters to be the average and so I'd estimate the actual overkill effect due to encounter style combat vs your endless simmed encounter to be 75% less. That's a significant reduction in the effect you are touting and it's not the only reductive effect either.

These two minor quibbles do not offset the MASSIVE differential I established with the simulation.

Not fully no. My position is that overkill has a minimal effect not no effect. These factors I'm discussing show your simulation estimated the impact of overkill damage to be significantly higher than it actually is.

You don't like the results because they contradict your position. However, they prove that overkill is a significant factor in the efficiency of a PC.

I'm willing to accept being wrong provided results produced from sound methodology reveal that to be so. I don't like your sim results because the methodology used in them skewed the results toward the conclusion that the overkill effect is more significant than it actually is.

And, once again, putting the simulations aside - I've recorded combats in 5E quite often and analyzed what went on to evaluate whether certain feats were actually overpowered, to look at how much of an impact overkill has, and for a variety of other reasons. My simulation and the recorded combats at the game table resulted in the same conclusions.

If we can show the sim methodology is biased toward inflating the impact of overkill and you get the same results with actual recorded combats then I'd suggest something is amiss with those results as well. Possibly small sample size. Possibly a DM that favors lower CR encounters. etc. All I know is that if the assumptions in the sim for ac, hp, etc were accurate enough that you would see a much lower effect of overkill in actual play because the sims numbers are significantly inflated as disucssed above.
 

In the HP distribution you provided what are your chances for seeing an average hp of each cr of monster? I say it distributes hp to much toward the extremely low CR's for level 5 PC's. But how can we actually discuss this properly without at least working out the answer to the question I proposed just now? So let's establish the answer to this question so we can talk reasonably and logically about your methods.

If I am right and your distribution distributes the hp range too much toward the lower ranges, fixing that will have a big impact on how much overkill damage you are seeing from the sim.

@jgsugden

I did a quick look through and I got somewhere around these probabilities for the various CR's using your hp generation method.


CR .25​
26.67%​
CR .5​
18.33%​
CR 1​
10.83%​
CR 2​
10.83%​
CR 3​
14.17%​
CR 4​
11.67%​
CR 5​
5.83%​
CR 6​
1.67%​

For complete transparency I set the following hp ranges for the CR's.

CR .25​
1 to 14​
CR .5​
15 to 24​
CR 1​
25 to 34​
CR 2​
35 to 44​
CR 3​
45 to 63​
CR 4​
64 to 89​
CR 5​
90 to 109​
CR 6​
110 to 120 (cut off)​


To me this is pretty clear that the low CR/low hp enemies are extremely overrepresented in your sim. About 2/3's of the enemies in your sim would have been CR 2 or under. Also, over 25% have between 1 and 14 hp and fall into the CR .25 range.

Thoughts?
 

@FrogReaver - You're trying real hard to justify your response.
...
If we can show the sim methodology is biased toward inflating the impact of overkill and you get the same results with actual recorded combats then I'd suggest something is amiss with those results as well. ...
So, because reality does not meet your expectations, reality is flawed and must not be real?

When basic math, history and common sense all align against you, accept that you can be wrong. For now, I give up. I'm just blocking you.
 



then we are done. I asked a simples question to help me understand and you refer me back across pages of posts. Not cool when it’s a freaking yes or no question.
I told you where the answer was, simply. I thought you said you'd tried to understand the model I generated?

Look, I could easily answer your question, but it's such a fundamental part of the analysis that if you missed that you've also missed a host of other important details that are explicitly shared. So, I could answer, and then you'll just ask more questions that are already answered, or I can point you to where the answer is, and maybe you'll re-read and note the rest.
 

@FrogReaver - You're trying real hard to justify your response.
So, because reality does not meet your expectations, reality is flawed and must not be real?

When basic math, history and common sense all align against you, accept that you can be wrong. For now, I give up. I'm just blocking you.

so I typed out some very thoughtful posts About the mitigating points of your sims methodology and you can’t accept that those are valid points. Instead you say you will ignore me.

I can’t see your game history so I can only speculate on how it compares to the sim. It’s like you expect me to just take your word on it. I won’t. It’s very well in the realm of possibility that your game history is a good measure of overkill effect. But it’s also possible that it’s not. I can’t see it so the best I can do is compare it to the sim results. The best I can do is say what you believe to be strong evidence of your position isn’t as strong as you think. Because while your sim and actual results were Believed to be in alignment that bolstered your point but when your sim and actuals aren’t in alignment that’s evidence your actuals May be skewed.
 

I told you where the answer was, simply. I thought you said you'd tried to understand the model I generated?

Look, I could easily answer your question, but it's such a fundamental part of the analysis that if you missed that you've also missed a host of other important details that are explicitly shared. So, I could answer, and then you'll just ask more questions that are already answered, or I can point you to where the answer is, and maybe you'll re-read and note the rest.

I don’t think you want a discussion. What you are doing isn’t conducive to it. So we are done. I can’t discuss with someone dead set on not discussing.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top