D&D 5E The impact of overkill damage

[Asisreo]

No, the monsters may be behaving tactically (based on the information they have), but the DM most certainly is not. The DM is choosing tactics that they know to be poor, because it's what they believe the monsters would do. Which is a perfectly valid choice for a DM to make, but is not based on sound tactics.

It's entirely possible that the DM can make a valid choice from both a RP and tactical standpoint. For example, hobgoblins who've encountered the party and know to expect fireballs.

There's also the fact that even if goblins were ignorant of fireball and bad at tactics, they still wouldn't group of in significant numbers. Anymore than 3 goblins in a 20ft radius is too close together.

Why? Because they're goblins. Goblins don't fight in mobs and advance like a squad, they're ambushers and skirmishers. They're constantly changing their position in combat and weaving through their enemies, because they know that an enemy that can predict them is an enemy that will usually win.

There's only a few monsters that would gather close together in a group: archers and brutes. Archers might attack in a close formation and launch their arrows to the sky which would be perfect pickings for a spellcaster to wipe them out all at once. Of course, a sniper is different in that they'll spread themselves out and be in constant cover. A scout NPC can be either an archer or a sniper. The other enemy type is a brute. These enemies want to run to an enemy and pound them with melee as quickly as the can. They prefer to surround their targets so escape becomes much more difficult. Brutes tend to have higher health, though, and may end up surviving the blast.

 

[MarkB]

There's also the fact that even if goblins were ignorant of fireball and bad at tactics, they still wouldn't group of in significant numbers. Anymore than 3 goblins in a 20ft radius is too close together.

Why? Because they're goblins. Goblins don't fight in mobs and advance like a squad, they're ambushers and skirmishers. They're constantly changing their position in combat and weaving through their enemies, because they know that an enemy that can predict them is an enemy that will usually win.

Literally the second line of the Goblin's Monster Manual entry says that, while individually weak, they gather together in large, sometimes overwhelming, numbers. And their Nimble Escape feature is well suited to ganging-up tactics, allowing goblins to swap in and out of position in order to gang up on a single target without getting in each others' way, letting them get in many attacks even in tight quarters.

 

[Asisreo]

Literally the second line of the Goblin's Monster Manual entry says that, while individually weak, they gather together in large, sometimes overwhelming, numbers. And their Nimble Escape feature is well suited to ganging-up tactics, allowing goblins to swap in and out of position in order to gang up on a single target without getting in each others' way, letting them get in many attacks even in tight quarters.

Right, they gather in large numbers in their lairs. But that does not mean they sit in tightly packed spaces in combat.

And nimble escape is mostly to hide. They have stealth proficiency and shortbows. Hiding is a constant part of their strategy. Goblins will not stay engaged with an enemy. They are too fragile to be out in the front for so long.

 

[Todd Roybark]

if you are killing half the enemies you hit and leaving the others nearly dead thats not alot different than killing the whole pack outright in terms of effectiveness IMO.

I think this is an opinion ripe to be reconsidered. Being at 1 hp, does not reduce damage output.
If three goblins out of a tribe of 30 goblins survive a fireball with 1 hp, and proceed to strike your character with 15 hp 3 times for 5 damage apiece....then yes your party is in mop up mode.
Unfortunately what your party is mopping up is your blood.

2. Your PC will not be the one killing every enemy in an encounter. (Rule of thumb might be to estimate that he kills 1/4 of the enemies in the encounter).

The higher one's DPR, the higher the chance that any subsequent hit is overkill.
Individual calculations of overkill are only useful for determining a number that represents the Overkill number of the PC group.

This is a measure of resource efficiency after all.

DPR, Turns to Kill...the real metric needs to be Turns to Neutralize compared to Party Resources Expended.

This is why Charm effects, when applied, are extremely efficient resource expenditures.

 

[Ancalagon]

No, the monsters may be behaving tactically (based on the information they have), but the DM most certainly is not. The DM is choosing tactics that they know to be poor, because it's what they believe the monsters would do. Which is a perfectly valid choice for a DM to make, but is not based on sound tactics.

It's entirely possible that the DM can make a valid choice from both a RP and tactical standpoint. For example, hobgoblins who've encountered the party and know to expect fireballs.

If players shouldn't metagame, sometimes neither should the DM And it's good for PC morale to smack down some minor foes from time to time.

 

[Todd Roybark]

And it's good for PC morale to smack down some minor foes from time to time.

Sure, but in 5e this is reversed. A 10th level party can kill a solo clay golem in one and a half rounds easy. That same group can be bedeviled by 60 goblins and terrain that is favorable to the goblins, like tall grass and shrubs.

Solo Monster dies hard, is a 5e truism.

 

[Ancalagon]

Sure, but in 5e this is reversed. A 10th level party can kill a solo clay golem in one and a half rounds easy. That same group can be bedeviled by 60 goblins and terrain that is favorable to the goblins, like tall grass and shrubs.

Solo Monster dies hard, is a 5e truism.

You have a point there. I must admit that I haven't tried that scenario yet in 5e as a DM. They had 2 monks - and let me tell you, a pair of level 8 monks can wreak havoc on any "big bad boss". They had a mass combat but it was vs zombies, and zombies are dumb. The warlock got some to chase him onto a "platform" - he was levitating on an illusion. A bunch plummeted to their death 50 feet below...

 

[Todd Roybark]

Tucker had his kobolds in 1e. In 5e we all get goblins!

To be fair, bedevil means just that...the goblins are not going to win.
Honestly, I figured that 60 goblins in tall, dry grass would guarantee a wild fire started by the PCs. I needed a wildfire plot point...without seeming like I had arranged for that plot point.

 

[Fanaelialae]

If players shouldn't metagame, sometimes neither should the DM And it's good for PC morale to smack down some minor foes from time to time.

I never said otherwise. Different tables will handle this differently, and there's no right or wrong answer. I've played with groups who really enjoyed tactical combat, and didn't mind relaxing the restriction on metagaming during combat in order to create the most challenging encounters possible. I, myself, run things such that the creatures only act on the knowledge they have access to, even if I know it to be a tactically poor decision.

However, when I make those bad tactical decisions, I do so knowingly.

And there are plenty of scenarios where I can make good tactical decisions based on what the monsters know. Or even good tactical decisions based on circumstances that inform their behavior. If the players set off an alarm trap in a room with many doors, and orcs from throughout the dungeon start rushing into that room, it would be very odd for them to all arrive at the same time and from the same direction, unless they were all in the same location prior or take the time to organize themselves. In most cases, they would naturally arrive in waves from multiple different directions, rendering fireball impractical.

Tactical, and no metagaming required.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think this is an opinion ripe to be reconsidered. Being at 1 hp, does not reduce damage output.
If three goblins out of a tribe of 30 goblins survive a fireball with 1 hp, and proceed to strike your character with 15 hp 3 times for 5 damage apiece....then yes your party is in mop up mode.
Unfortunately what your party is mopping up is your blood.

First of all, what you are describing has an astronomically low chance of occuring and any healing spell completely resolves the issue.

More importantly though, the point I made was that AOE will likely kill some targets and leave others with low hp, due to the save for half. If you've killed half the enemies with your AOE (or heck, even disabled half) then you've already trivialized the fight.