The Impasse

[Fenes]

Oooh, bad news, champ.

Yeah, I'd have hated playing chainmail. I never used minis in any RPG.

 

[Fenes]

As far support for stunts is concerned: MMOGs showed us that if an option is less efficient, it'll not get used often. As long as stunts are not better than powers players are discouraged from making stunts.

 

[Rel]

As far support for stunts is concerned: MMOGs showed us that if an option is less efficient, it'll not get used often. As long as stunts are not better than powers players are discouraged from making stunts.

That is only true if stunts do the exact same sorts of things that your powers do. My players use stunts every session. But it is always to do something that they couldn't do with one of their powers.

 

[garyh]

As far support for stunts is concerned: MMOGs showed us that if an option is less efficient, it'll not get used often. As long as stunts are not better than powers players are discouraged from making stunts.

And what about my point that if stunts trump powers, why have powers? And my example that stunts can be used to come up with something roughly equal to a power, but more useful to the circumstances at hand?

 

[Scribble]

As far support for stunts is concerned: MMOGs showed us that if an option is less efficient, it'll not get used often. As long as stunts are not better than powers players are discouraged from making stunts.

I think that has less to do with MMOs and more to do with human nature.

I mean I could take my coffee to work in a giant bucket everyday. A thermos is more efficient and keeps it warm longer... So I use that, and not the aforementioned bucket.

But yeah, if you want to encourage stunts to be used, you need some incentive for them to be used.

In some cases "the chance is better then my at-will" might be enough. In others maybe not?

 

[Thasmodious]

4e not simulationist enough? That's ridiculous. I mean in the real world, people regenerate their wounds completely after 6 hours of rest. Don't they? Real world archetypes of paladins were known to challenge enemies and punish them with laser beams if they backed down. Let's not forget that real world archetypes of clerics are known for throwing around laser beams and healing with equal proficiency. In the real world a drill seargeant can convince a mortally wounded soldier to shrug it off and keep fighting by yelling at him, right? Let's face it. 4e embraces gamism at the extreme with hardly a hint of realism.

As opposed to other editions with wishes, time stop, meteor swarm, super hero prestige classes, transforming weapons, immovable rods, magic liquids, otyughs, demons...

 

[Rechan]

As opposed to other editions with wishes, time stop, meteor swarm, super hero prestige classes, transforming weapons, immovable rods, magic liquids, otyughs, demons...

Druids becoming tornados, Jedi (Soul Knives), scry-buff-teleport, summoned monsters as trap finders, golf bags full of magical swords, Pun-Pun...

 

[RefinedBean]

Pet cats running wild, killing 1st level wizards...

 

[Njall]

4e not simulationist enough? That's ridiculous. I mean in the real world, people regenerate their wounds completely after 6 hours of rest. Don't they? Real world archetypes of paladins were known to challenge enemies and punish them with laser beams if they backed down. Let's not forget that real world archetypes of clerics are known for throwing around laser beams and healing with equal proficiency. In the real world a drill seargeant can convince a mortally wounded soldier to shrug it off and keep fighting by yelling at him, right? Let's face it. 4e embraces gamism at the extreme with hardly a hint of realism.

Sorry, man, I don't really see how 4e's way of handling HP can be deemed more gamist than 3e's way.
Hit points have always been a measure of your standing power; they've got very little in common with actual physical health.
Until you have at least 1 HP, you can still barely parry an opponent's blow so it isn't deadly; when your HP hit the 0 mark, you're exhausted, and your opponent can now score a killing blow.
So, since you're not actually injured ( at least, not in a way that would incapacitate you ) you can easily replenish your hit points reserve overnight.
3.x isn't really more realistic, in this sense.
For one, you can literally heal any injury without any real medical treatment. Sleeping, or even just resting, is enough. How realistic is that?
Furthermore, the sturdier you are, the more HP you'll have. And that's fine. However, given how things work in 3.x, natural healing is proportionally slower the higher your constitution score gets.
Don't trust me, just do the math:
in 3.5, a 10th level wizard with 10 con has about 27 HP. If he's reduced to 0 HP, he'll be fine in 3 days.
A 10th level fighter with 18 con has about 97 HP. If he's reduced to 0 HP, he'll be back to full in 10 days.
Really, I don't see how anyone can claim this is realistic ( or even just simulationist...).YMMV.

 

[DandD]

Okay, now it has been shown that simulationism doesn't have to equal realism at all, so what's next on the accusations toward 4th edition? That it was made from the skin of little human children?