D&D General The Importance of Page 33

[Rdm]

My issue is that he picked Victorian London as the example. The greatest city and trading port in the world at the time is emphatically not somewhere where someone would get that sort of reaction unless they were directly and actively threatening. Now if we're talking about the rural antebellum South of the United States where they kept militias for fear of slave uprisings and that didn't see visitors from across the world it's a whole different story.

Even a major trade city in real world Victorian England would react extremely to a walking cat person, yes.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Even a major trade city in real world Victorian England would react extremely to a walking cat person, yes.

They'd also react to a person with strange eyes and pointy ears, a squat and strangely shaped man, a child-sized adult or a green-grey skinned tusked gentleman.

 

[Azuresun]

It depends on WHY the player wants to play something odd. If you've got the guy that has to play oddballs that's one thing. But he'd better have a good reason why he's playing that. Or if the whole group wants to play stuff that isn't native to the region, they need to have a reason for why they came together. If I'm doing Planescape, sure anything goes, but if the starting area for the campaign looks more like Bree they'd better have a good reason that makes sense.

And then there's min-maxers. Min maxers only look at scores and abilities that come out to the biggest possible bonuses, and flavor means jack unless you got a really devious min-maxer who uses it as an end run around the DM. I'm coming from a 3e PoV so you'd better believe there's stuff like whisper gnomes or lesser planetouched that will never see the light of day in my game because they're broken. That's a DM maintaining game balance, not a stomp on the players.

Agreed, but there's also two other categories.

One is the "look at me!" guy, who wants to play something weird as a way of hogging the spotlight. Now every other player has to work their concepts around his, and the GM has to give him more attention as the world either reacts realistically to his unusual, super-special character or strains disbelief by ignoring it.

And the other is the player who just didn't care. They've got their tiefling cleric of Vecna, and that's what they're playing? Tieflings don't exist in the setting? Vecna doesn't exist in the setting? Eh, whatever, deal with it. They didn't give any thought to how such a character might plausibly exist in the world or the campaign the GM pitched, and they're not going to make any effort to try and make them feel like part of the world or story, purely because they didn't pay attention to anything about the world or the campaign pitch.

 

[Coroc]

... I'm coming from a 3e PoV so you'd better believe there's stuff like whisper gnomes or lesser planetouched that will never see the light of day in my game because they're broken.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Hobbit Tortle Pirates anyone ?

 

[jasper]

Even a major trade city in real world Victorian England would react extremely to a walking cat person, yes.

Bingo. Too many times I had players who want to have a waiver to play a special race/class/etc. Then get surprise when the town folk treat them with suspension. But we go with the Tabaxi in a world that they are super rare if they exist at all. Maybe the upper crust merchant who deals with magical items and crazy wizards would not bat an eye. But walk into the average bar and expect they just give you a hardy handshake, no.
It comes to play style. I treat pcs as they are people who showing up to help (maybe). This does not mean the townies are play kissy face with each pc. Other play styles include Mr. Spock just having a childhood accident when his head got caught in a rice picker and the npcs just don't bat an eye.
As a DM I will at session 0 give my elevator pitch. The players can accept or suggest changes. But if I say a hard NO to a change, the player either can play or sit out the sessions. @doctorbadwolf seems to be on the side, the dm must always compromise their vision. Did that plenty of times. Did not enjoy it. Will not do again.

 

[Oofta]

For better or worse if I look at the old school "acceptable" races, they all look more or less like humans, possibly affected by a fun-house mirror, maybe with prosthetic ears. But from a distance with nothing to judge scale? Human.

Meanwhile nobody is going to look at a dragonborn and think "gee that guy has really bad eczema." He's going to be easily and quickly identified as not being human at all. For better or worse people fear the "other" and the more something is different from expectations the more that is going to apply.

If you open the floodgates (like FR does) it becomes less of an issue unless you're dealing with an isolated community.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Agreed, but there's also two other categories.

One is the "look at me!" guy, who wants to play something weird as a way of hogging the spotlight. Now every other player has to work their concepts around his, and the GM has to give him more attention as the world either reacts realistically to his unusual, super-special character or strains disbelief by ignoring it.

And the other is the player who just didn't care. They've got their tiefling cleric of Vecna, and that's what they're playing? Tieflings don't exist in the setting? Vecna doesn't exist in the setting? Eh, whatever, deal with it. They didn't give any thought to how such a character might plausibly exist in the world or the campaign the GM pitched, and they're not going to make any effort to try and make them feel like part of the world or story, purely because they didn't pay attention to anything about the world or the campaign pitch.

Again, should we just assume that is the case? I'm not saying such people don't exist, but it seems like every time this topic comes up it is the player who doesn't want to play a human/dwarf/elf/halfling that is the problem. They are attention hogs who don't care or min-maxxers who don't care or.... it is endless.


An earlier poster pointed out, there is nothing about gothic horror that prevents a cat person from being involved. The horror is coming from the actions being taken and their descriptions, not from the players staring across the table a cat. Also, the Mist very specifically is supposed to take people from across the multiverse, so, logically there is no reason it couldn't take a tabaxi.

Why is that player a problem who wants to be a snowflake, when they fit the story being told?

Even a major trade city in real world Victorian England would react extremely to a walking cat person, yes.

Sure, in real world anywhere a giant talking cat would get an extreme reaction.

In fantasy Victorian England where people from across the multiverse have been pulled by dark powers and eaten by monsters in the dark for centuries?

Somehow I don't think it is that strange they might have seen worse, upon occassion.

Bingo. Too many times I had players who want to have a waiver to play a special race/class/etc. Then get surprise when the town folk treat them with suspension. But we go with the Tabaxi in a world that they are super rare if they exist at all. Maybe the upper crust merchant who deals with magical items and crazy wizards would not bat an eye. But walk into the average bar and expect they just give you a hardy handshake, no.

It comes to play style. I treat pcs as they are people who showing up to help (maybe). This does not mean the townies are play kissy face with each pc. Other play styles include Mr. Spock just having a childhood accident when his head got caught in a rice picker and the npcs just don't bat an eye.

As a DM I will at session 0 give my elevator pitch. The players can accept or suggest changes. But if I say a hard NO to a change, the player either can play or sit out the sessions. @doctorbadwolf seems to be on the side, the dm must always compromise their vision. Did that plenty of times. Did not enjoy it. Will not do again.

And now we are back at the DM compromising his vision. Again.

In my earlier example, somewhat riffing off the idea that "if even one players suspension of disbelief" was ruined that the character was not ok, I specifically didn't bring the DM into. They were neutral to the whole affair.

So, what if the DM isn't compromising his vision. What if he is fine with a Dragonborn Paladin because he wants to do some cool things with that. But another player starts going on about how Dragonborn make no sense in the setting. Is the Dragonborn player still the problem?

And, when you have townsfolk view the Tabaxi with suspicion and possibly hostility, do you make any consideration about the rest of the party? By that I mean, if elves and dwarves and halflings are all okay, and you have say A Human Cleric of the Goddess of Light, a Dwarven Paladin and an Elven Ranger whose people have helped the village in the past walking into town with a cat person... the townsfolk might be a little weirded out by a cat person, but they've got two divine forces of good and a local hero with them, so he can't be that bad.

In my experience, no, each party member is treated as a distinct unit, as though they are traveling alone and just happen to be sitting next to a local legend.

 

[jasper]

........

And now we are back at the DM compromising his vision. Again.

(I missed this).In my earlier example, somewhat riffing off the idea that "if even one players suspension of disbelief" was ruined that the character was not ok, I specifically didn't bring the DM into. They were neutral to the whole affair.

(1.) So, what if the DM isn't compromising his vision. What if he is fine with a Dragonborn Paladin because he wants to do some cool things with that. But another player starts going on about how Dragonborn make no sense in the setting. Is the Dragonborn player still the problem?

(2). And, when you have townsfolk view the Tabaxi with suspicion and possibly hostility, do you make any consideration about the rest of the party? By that I mean, if elves and dwarves and halflings are all okay, and you have say A Human Cleric of the Goddess of Light, a Dwarven Paladin and an Elven Ranger whose people have helped the village in the past walking into town with a cat person... the townsfolk might be a little weirded out by a cat person, but they've got two divine forces of good and a local hero with them, so he can't be that bad.

In my experience, no, each party member is treated as a distinct unit, as though they are traveling alone and just happen to be sitting next to a local legend.

1. If Bola Bob is mad because Chaosmancer is running the Dragonborn Peter Parker the Purple Paladin of Pittsburgh, the Bola Bob would be reminded in is MY (DMs) campaign. If he keeps it up, Bola Bob would told to deal with it or sit out my games.
2. If Tom Cat Tabaxi (very rare race or player special PC), Peter Parker the Purple Paladin of Pittsburgh, and his drinking buddies Drunken Dwarf Paladin, Sue Cleric of the Light, and Legos The elf archer, all walked into the bar then the bar would break out in cat calls about what the cat dragged in. Tom Cat would be served a pitcher of cream order by the local trouble maker.
2. If Tom Cat Tabaxi walked into the bar alone, then with Tabaxi being rare or player special. He would be viewed with hostility. Some bar customers would be FIXED for a fight. Some would send for the local sheriff. Others would send up the paladin signal and hope Peter Parker the Purple Paladin of Pittsburgh was nearby to save us from this cat deamon.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Even a major trade city in real world Victorian England would react extremely to a walking cat person, yes.

It depends what you mean by "extremely". Curiously, certainly. Some slightly worried, probably. Kids following him in the street, entirely likely.

But a gentleman like that (and he is an obvious gentleman) wouldn't get the immediate panic implied. Unlike e.g. an orc dressed as if they are looking for a fight. And this is a setting without magic where you expect things to be more varied.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't think a crusader would have a negative attitude towards a "blackamoor" (not a Moor - those are north africans) in medieval times. Unlike the paler Turks and Arabs, Ethiopians would be the only group a crusader would be likely to encounter and they were Christian (and indeed, there are records of Ethiopian pilgrims visiting the crusader states that doesn't seem to have been considered remarkable).

First, medieval Europeans often used the term Moor for any Middle Eastern or African person who was or seemed to be Muslim. The meaning of “Black Moor” is obvious contextually, and the phrase was used historically exactly for darker skinned “Moors”. And the Muslim world always had heavy travel, and so a crusader would have seen Black Moors if they fought in the Holy Land.

Anyway, a soldier who fought in a Crusade might very easily have prejudices against Moors, which would be heightened the more “different” an individual appeared.

All of which is tangential to the actual point.