D&D General The Importance of Verisimilitude (or "Why you don't need realism to keep it real")

Class is a clear example of an equally weighted choice. Every player picks one class at first level. There is no 'cost' to choosing one over the other.
This idea runs counter to a lot of the discussion I hear around classes not being equally balanced against each other (i.e. the idea of classes having "tiers"), in which case the weighting isn't equal, presuming that we're attaching the same meaning to the terminology used.
Less-contributing is likewise quantifiable. What abilities do you bring to the party? What resources? Do they synergize with others in any way. The can be quite complex, but they're not unknowable.

Chances of success can be estimated. That's what the CR guidelines try to do, they're just terrible at it - in large part, because the classes are so imbalanced that party composition can cause large swings in how capable they are. Prior editions have done better.
I'll point out that the issue isn't that they're "not unknowable," but rather that what's known doesn't provide sufficient detail for the level of "balance" that's being sought (presuming I'm understanding you correctly). What abilities are brought to the table are measured in various terms, but what they're measured against changes value depending on the situation the party finds themselves in, which can only be outlined in terms so general that they're effectively useless.

IM1 The Immortal Storm (affiliate link) is a scenario designed for Immortal characters playing under the BECMI rules. In it, the Immortals end up on a plane where there is no magic (i.e. Earth), shutting down most of their god-like abilities; that's the sort of scenario that you can't really quantify ahead of time, because it makes their non-magical abilities (and inherent powers which don't rely on magic) that much more valuable, throwing ideas of balance out the window in favor of verisimilitude (since it makes sense that Earth wouldn't have magic, making gods who adventure there operate under some heavy constraints).
 

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This idea runs counter to a lot of the discussion I hear around classes not being equally balanced against each other (i.e. the idea of classes having "tiers"), in which case the weighting isn't equal, presuming that we're attaching the same meaning to the terminology used.
It's the choice that is equally weighted. What do you have to do to play a fighter in 5e vs a wizard. Just pick one. The choices are equally weighted. Now, if D&D were a build system, where you got 99 points to spend on your stats, background, race, and class, and fighter cost 10 points and wizard 29, they would be differently-weighted choices.

Since D&D classes are equally weighted choices, the fact they sort into starkly different 'Tiers' is evidence the game is badly imbalanced.

I'll point out that the issue isn't that they're "not unknowable," but rather that what's known doesn't provide sufficient detail for the level of "balance" that's being sought (presuming I'm understanding you correctly). What abilities are brought to the table are measured in various terms, but what they're measured against changes value depending on the situation the party finds themselves in, which can only be outlined in terms so general that they're effectively useless.
Not at all. Genres and campaigns have scope, tropes and themes. The range of possible scenarios may be huge, if you consider them in enough detail, but they fall into the scope of the game - fighting 6 goblins a 20x25 room is different from fighting 7 goblins in 35x20 room, but they're both combats. The game, itself, also provides parameters in what it chooses to model, and how, and what it chooses to simplify, gloss over, or kick to the DM to fake in the moment.

The three pillars contextualize what happens a game like D&D well enough to determine how abilities compare in a range of situations, for instance.

A game that tries to equally-weight choices that are useful only in radically different situations is going to be badly balanced across, say, a whole campaign. The way, for instance, that fighters receive Extra Attack as a major portion of their effectiveness, useful only in one pillar, while spells are at least as useful in combat, and also in the other two pillars is another solid example of bad balance.
 
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Halflings and Goliaths emphatically do not have the same strength in 5e in the normal real world sense of the word. That is because in the normal strength of the word your strength is measured by such things as how much you can lift and how much you can carry - and Goliaths have Powerful Build. Even if the strength score is the same the actual quantity of physical strength is significantly greater for the Goliath - and that's a far bigger difference in actual physical strength than a simple +-2.

So the problem those objecting to the versimilitude here isn't that a halfling is as strong as a goliath. They aren't. It's that two arbitrary and abstract numbers are equal, and those numbers happen to be called "strength".

Solution: Rename the stats.
 



It's the choice that is equally weighted. What do you have to do to play a fighter in 5e vs a wizard. Just pick one. The choices are equally weighted. Now, if D&D were a build system, where you got 99 points to spend on your stats, background, race, and class, and fighter cost 10 points and wizard 29, they would be differently-weighted choices.

Since D&D classes are equally weighted choices, the fact they sort into starkly different 'Tiers' is evidence the game is badly imbalanced.
If there's an acknowledgment that the classes aren't equally weighted (i.e. that they are divided into tiers), then I'd say that by definition means that they aren't weighted equally. It's like comparing paper money (in the U.S.), where the bills are the same size and weight, but have different denominations.
Not at all. Genres and campaigns have scope, tropes and themes. The range of possible scenarios may be huge, if you consider them in enough detail, but they fall into the scope of the game - fighting 6 goblins a 20x25 room is different from fighting 7 goblins in 35x20 room, but they're both combats. The game, itself, also provides parameters in what it chooses to model, and how, and what it chooses to simplify, gloss over, or kick to the DM to fake in the moment.
I don't believe this to be the case; even on paper that strikes me as an oversimplification of what the game allows for, and quite often what it's composed of, even if we leave aside the fact that things change depending on what specific enemies are faced under what specific circumstances and after how many previous encounters (which conceivably changes, possibly dramatically, what the PCs are capable of). Facing six goblins in a small room is very different from fighting a half-red aquatic great wyrm in its undersea volcanic lair which is itself in a natural dead-magic zone (and yes, I speak from experience there).

The scope of potential play is too wide, in other words, to be narrowed down by the examples your outlining, and the parameters themselves are little more than (very loose) guidelines which are all too often treated with more weight than they were ever meant to have (i.e. "you're supposed to face four encounters per day of a CR equal to the average party level!"). That's a design principle to allow for eyeballing things, not an exact science.
The three pillars contextualize what happens a game like D&D well enough to determine how abilities compare in a range of situations, for instance.
I disagree here also; at least two of the three pillars strike me as being highly overstated, to the point where in many cases they're a myth more than a reliable indicator of, well, anything (insofar as being able to systematize interactions with them for balance purposes goes, I mean).
A game that tries to equally-weight choices that are useful only in radically different situations is going to be badly balanced across, say, a whole campaign. The way, for instance, that fighters receive Extra Attack as a major portion of their effectiveness, useful only in one pillar, while spells are at least as useful in combat, and also in the other two pillars is another solid example of bad balance.
That's largely because you can't delineate comparable options across a spectrum that consists of "anything." Again, this is why I think verisimilitude is a much better measure to go by than a nebulous concept of "balance," because the former allows for the PCs to measure the situation in-and-of itself and make choices therein with what they have at their disposal, applying it against what they know with regard to how/why the world works the way it does. It's much better than the one-size-fits-all method (I think) that "balance" keeps shooting for, but doesn't ever seem to come close to without having to eliminate a lot of options (often in a way that impinges on verisimilitude; again, chess is a very well-balanced game, but it makes for poor role-playing).
 

If there's an acknowledgment that the classes aren't equally weighted (i.e. that they are divided into tiers), then I'd say that by definition means that they aren't weighted equally. It's like comparing paper money (in the U.S.), where the bills are the same size and weight, but have different denominations.
I understand this can be a difficult medium, encoding and decoding can both be difficult, and the failure can be on either side.

I thought the hypothetical point build example was very clear. Even D&D uses point build for stats, so it can't be that unfamiliar a concept.
If you have a follow-up question that might aid your understanding, please, go ahead.
 
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I understand this can be a difficult medium, but do you really not understand the concept of choices being equally or differently weighted?

I thought the hypothetical point build example was very clear. Even D&D uses point build for stats, so it can't be that unfamiliar a concept.
You do realize that "do you really not understand" questions are necessarily hostile in their phrasing, right? Honestly, your entire post here comes across as aggressive.

If you think I'm misunderstanding you, then I'll invite you to restate your earlier points, but in a way that doesn't compromise the tenor of the discussion.
 

If there's an acknowledgment that the classes aren't equally weighted (i.e. that they are divided into tiers), then I'd say that by definition means that they aren't weighted equally. It's like comparing paper money (in the U.S.), where the bills are the same size and weight, but have different denominations.
The tiers aren't something designed into the game, they're just a natural ranking of the choices in any game that features a prominent decision between asymmetrical choices. Fighting game characters have tiers, cultures and nations in 4X games have tiers , etc.

Designers don't put them into the game, they're just a natural outgrowth of the fact that perfectly balancing asymmetrical choices is impossible.
 

The tiers aren't something designed into the game, they're just a natural ranking of the choices in any game that features a prominent decision between asymmetrical choices. Fighting game characters have tiers, cultures and nations in 4X games have tiers , etc.

Designers don't put them into the game, they're just a natural outgrowth of the fact that perfectly balancing asymmetrical choices is impossible.
A very salient observation, to which I'll add only that I wonder if that's an outgrowth so much as an unintended consequence which is nevertheless inherent in the system (possibly due, in some regard, to trying to balance asymmetrical choices).
 

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