The King that Crawls

dave2008

Hero
I did way back in the day... one of the group's DMs really liked the setting. When the whole Time of Troubles happened in the switch to 2e, it just soured me on the setting.

Generally speaking, if it was setting neutral, it was in the Realms—as FR was supposed to be the generic setting, replacing Greyhawk when Gygax got ousted.
But Gygax was still around in 1e, that is what I was talking about. My comment was: "...if it wasn't in 1e, 4e, or 5e it is not canon to me" ;)
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Does anyone know if Torog is still canonical for 5th Edition? I name-dropped him in my campaign for the Halloween session, where a Chain Devil chased my party of 4th level characters through the Underdark when they happened across it during its pilgrimage down The King's Highway. I'm curious if I could add him in a story I'm writing that I intend to be as canonically accurate as I can make it.
My the power invested in my due to my great DMing skills, I pronounce it canon. AKA CANON is what the DM says is canon.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Does anyone know if Torog is still canonical for 5th Edition? I name-dropped him in my campaign for the Halloween session, where a Chain Devil chased my party of 4th level characters through the Underdark when they happened across it during its pilgrimage down The King's Highway. I'm curious if I could add him in a story I'm writing that I intend to be as canonically accurate as I can make it.
BEWARE OF NON-CANON. THE CANON COPS LEd BY MORRUS WILL KNOW. THEY WILL PEE ON YOUR KITCHEN FLOOR. KNOCK STUFF OFF THE FRIDGE. HIDE YOUR DICE BAG.
WAIT A MINUTE.
THAT IS MY ELDER CAT SOCKS.
 

S'mon

Legend
Not only is Tiamat in 1e FR, she has two different avatars! One in Throne of Bloodstone, canonically killed in Hell by Gareth Dragonsbane, and another in the Old Empires region, Unther pantheon I think it is - the Babylonian-based one. I recall a note in Old Empires that their Tiamat was annoyed at Gareth killing the northern version.
 

dave2008

Hero
Not by the time the original FR grey box came out.
I don't know what your talking about so I will take your word for it. Personally, when I talk 1e I am talking about the PHB, DMG, MM, MM II, FF, & Deities and Demigods.
 

Azzy

Cyclone Ranger
I don't know what your talking about so I will take your word for it. Personally, when I talk 1e I am talking about the PHB, DMG, MM, MM II, FF, & Deities and Demigods.
Ah, I see. When I talk of 1e, I'm including the whole run of products from 1977 to until the publication of 2e in 1988. Gygax was ousted in late 1985 (months after the release of UA and OA), the FR boxed set was published in 1987.
 
I would argue that setting neutral does not equal default FR. But as I've never played in FR, maybe that is just me.
When the 1st edition Monster Manual was published Forgotten Realms didn't exist as a fully-published campaign setting. There was a "Waterdeep" product out, but that was about it. FR as we know it came later, and since it didn't overrule any core rules everything in the original core rulebooks was in FR.
 

dave2008

Hero
When the 1st edition Monster Manual was published Forgotten Realms didn't exist as a fully-published campaign setting. There was a "Waterdeep" product out, but that was about it. FR as we know it came later, and since it didn't overrule any core rules everything in the original core rulebooks was in FR.
Was that stated somewhere? That being said, it is kinda irrelevant as I never bought FR products I would have no idea that books that had nothing to do with FR become part of FR.
 

dave2008

Hero
Ah, I see. When I talk of 1e, I'm including the whole run of products from 1977 to until the publication of 2e in 1988. Gygax was ousted in late 1985 (months after the release of UA and OA), the FR boxed set was published in 1987.
Yep, I only bought the books I mentioned, a dozen or two issue of dragon, 2 adventure modules, and the BECMI boxed sets (and minis - lots of minis) from 1e. So no FR for me.
 
Was that stated somewhere? That being said, it is kinda irrelevant as I never bought FR products I would have no idea that books that had nothing to do with FR become part of FR.
It didn't need to be stated, since the idea that campaign settings might feature different rules and monsters hadn't been thought of at the time. It was just assumed that Tiamat was Tiamat, whether your adventure was set in Greyhawk, Waterdeep or Homebrew.

Dark Sun was probably the first campaign setting to state "X does not exist in this setting", and that was around ten years later.
 

MonsterEnvy

Adventurer
Thanks everyone. I keep forgetting to specify the setting, but I’m asking about the Forgotten Realms. He’s a great tragic deity for my homebrew campaign setting, but I won’t be able to use him in my story. Oh well.
Just say he's a Demon Lord there.
 

pemerton

Legend
It didn't need to be stated, since the idea that campaign settings might feature different rules and monsters hadn't been thought of at the time. It was just assumed that Tiamat was Tiamat, whether your adventure was set in Greyhawk, Waterdeep or Homebrew.

Dark Sun was probably the first campaign setting to state "X does not exist in this setting", and that was around ten years later.
Dragonlance predates Dark Sun, and doesn't have orcs. Or halflings.

And Dark Sun doesn't originate the idea, although it might be an early published example. The idea that a setting might feature different monsters, and even different rules, was well established by the time that AD&D was published (in the late 70s).
 
Dragonlance predates Dark Sun, and doesn't have orcs. Or halflings.
Quite true, and it dates from the original module in 1984. Still after Monster Manual and the first Forgotten Realms stuff though.

And Dark Sun doesn't originate the idea, although it might be an early published example. The idea that a setting might feature different monsters, and even different rules, was well established by the time that AD&D was published (in the late 70s).
That claim, I see no evidence to support (and I have been playing since 1981). And it was certainly never applied to the Forgotten Realms.

Although Tiamat was presented as a monster, not a deity in the 1st edition Monster Manual, so I think it's fair to say that Tiamat was not originally an FR deity.
 

pemerton

Legend
That claim, I see no evidence to support (and I have been playing since 1981).
Look at Empire of the Petal Throne, which is clearly a D&D variant with different rules and different monsters.

And with all the monsters being published in various magazines and comparable supplements, it was taken for granted that each GM would pick and choose which to include in his/her setting.

Or look at DDG: when that was published it was likewise taken for granted that which deities, monsters etc might exist in a given campaign was a matter of choice. (The idea that they all exist in some sort of multiversal/mega-versal arrangement is something that I'm not aware of before the publication of the MotP - and obviously Planescape has since strongly consolidated that way of thinking.)
 
Empire of the Petal Throne was a separate game, not a D&D setting or spin-off. It had similar rules because it emerged from the same roots as D&D.

And sure, it was left up to the DM to decide what to include and not include, as it was up until 1984 Dragons of Despair, and as it is again today.
 
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Azzy

Cyclone Ranger
Although Tiamat was presented as a monster, not a deity in the 1st edition Monster Manual, so I think it's fair to say that Tiamat was not originally an FR deity.
She was treated as a lesser deity in Deities & Demigods, I don't believe she was mentioned as a god in original FR boxed set, though.
 

ParanoydStyle

Peace Among Worlds
5e doesn't distinguish between "canon" and "non-canon". If you want Torog in your game then have Torog in your game.
This is true and it's also a return to form for Dungeons & Dragons as that was its attitude way back in the very first editions as well.

I will say I'd never heard of Torog before this thread and I wasn't aware that 4E had actually made any additions to the pantheon.
 

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