D&D 5E The lack of "trap" choices in 5E

[Remathilis]

That's excellent to hear. The lack of Str, Int, and Cha saves was a facet of 5e that I really wasn't happy with.

Yeah, They aren't nearly as prevalent as Dex/Con/Wis (and they tend to be a bit more corner-case) but they ARE there as of TWSNBN and I imagine the Monster Manual (and DMG in the magic item and traps sections) will have more.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Trap implies that it is a "wrong" way to build something; and as soon as you say its "wrong" it implies the other way is "right" which starts the process of straightjacketing characters into narrow "trap free builds", which in turn then forces the game ever upwards as the arms race between DM and PC starts.

Nod. 'Trap' choices are a sign of a poorly-balanced game, yes.

I suppose a 'better' way of handling Resilient might be that it boosts a pair of Save: CON/STR, DEX/INT or WIS/CHA, at the option of the character taking it. Honestly, as 'big' as feats are supposed to be, and as barely-adequate as proficiency with a save is as a defense, even that's not too impressive.

I suppose, to keep the feat from 'punishing' certain classes, it could even be choose one save from CON, DEX, or WIS, and one from STR, INT, or CHA. So, just like classes, so far, seem to have one 'real' and one 'rare' save proficiency, the feat would double that. Take the feat twice, and you have proficiency in all saves, and are no longer at a severe disadvantage on some of them.

Mind you, proficiency in all saves just gives you a baseline 'fair' chance of making a save forced by a same-level caster or equivalent monster (or other danger with similar DC), if it's one of your best stats. Even a save with proficiency, if it's a low stat, is going to be hard to make.

 

[Mistwell]

Your primary opponent is monsters from the monster manual, not NPCs created using the PC creation tools. Sure, you will fight some NPCs, but the intent of the game is for the book created to provide the DM with hundreds of challenges (the Monster Manual) be used to create most of your challenges.

So until the MM comes out, it's impossible to know what saves will or will not come up. And even the playtest provided so few monsters (relative to the quantity generally found in an MM) as to not be enough to even draw a slight conclusion from it.

 

[TDarien]

There's at least one instance of a STR save in LMoP, and it definitely feels right in that particular situation. I'm guessing there will be guidelines in the DMG for which saving throws apply to which situations.

 

[Li Shenron]

Strength saves might be used against forced movement, Int against Psionics (hello mind flayer) and Cha against charming songs/abilities (siren songs, nymph's lure).

At least it seems that WotC designers have purposefully removed every previous instance of Str/Int/Cha saving throws from anything that went into Basic D&D, and replaced them with other saves or with Str/Int/Cha checks, for which there exists no proficiency.

I won't count much on the MM to reintroduce those saves at this point.

Ok, I did a quick run through ThatWhichShallNotBeNamed*, and it seems Charisma is the save against planar binding or banishment (Divine Word, Forcecage, etc) as well as spells that effect emotion (Calm Emotion, Symbol) and Truth (Zone of Truth). Cha is used for spells where you test your presence against another, rather than those that test your willpower.

Intelligence seems very much the area of psionics; spells that affect your mind (Feeblemind, Symbol of Madness) or use your brain to kill you (Phantasmal Killer, Weird) seem to be the Int save areas. I'm sure Mind Blast and the eventual Psionicist are going to have a field day with this.

Strength saves are against physical restraint or movement: Entangle, Gust of Wind, Thunderous Smite's knockback, the winds of a Tsumani or Wind Wall spells, etc.

I'd hope it's like that in the PHB, but isn't ThatWhichShallNotBeNamed actually older than Basic D&D?

 

[1of3]

Strength saves might be used against forced movement, Int against Psionics (hello mind flayer) and Cha against charming songs/abilities (siren songs, nymph's lure).

In the alpha, Cha saves kind of represented your metaphysical passport. They were used against effects that enforced or crossed lines of existence, like forced Plane Shifts, Banishments, Magic Circles and Zone of Truth. So the Charisma save kind of says: This is me, I have a right to be here.

If this remains to final, I would probably use them to resist the "natural" conditions on other planes of existence.

 

[Joe Liker]

Your primary opponent is monsters from the monster manual, not NPCs created using the PC creation tools. Sure, you will fight some NPCs, but the intent of the game is for the book created to provide the DM with hundreds of challenges (the Monster Manual) be used to create most of your challenges.

So until the MM comes out, it's impossible to know what saves will or will not come up. And even the playtest provided so few monsters (relative to the quantity generally found in an MM) as to not be enough to even draw a slight conclusion from it.

It's impossible to know with 100 percent certainty, but seeing which spells use which saves is a pretty good indication of their mindset in this regard.

I think we can trust that, moving forward, Str saves are used against forced movement, Con saves are for poisons and diseases, Dex saves allow you to get out of the way, Int saves are for psionics, Wis saves are for willpower and illusion, and Cha saves are for personality-based attacks.

I'm not sure I agree with the current status of charm person, but other than that, I feel like they've got a pretty solid handle on things -- certainly enough so that there won't be any "traps" if you choose to boost any one of these saves.

 

[Remathilis]

At least it seems that WotC designers have purposefully removed every previous instance of Str/Int/Cha saving throws from anything that went into Basic D&D, and replaced them with other saves or with Str/Int/Cha checks, for which there exists no proficiency.

I won't count much on the MM to reintroduce those saves at this point.

I'd hope it's like that in the PHB, but isn't ThatWhichShallNotBeNamed actually older than Basic D&D?

It is, but there are plenty of examples of Checks along with Saves. Probably more examples of Checks (such as illusions using Int/Investigate to disbelieve) but those that I found called on SAVES specifically.

As with everything TWSNBN, we'll know in less than a month. But I have a feeling most of these will stick.

 

[Mistwell]

It's impossible to know with 100 percent certainty, but seeing which spells use which saves is a pretty good indication of their mindset in this regard.

Which saves the spells use, is not a pretty good indication of their mindset in regard to which saves the monsters threaten. One is expressly magical, the other may well not be. A worm eating you, with a strength check to oppose being eaten, is in no way the same as a fireball. So no, I disagree, it's not informative really to see what the spells use.

 

[Grazzt]

Why would the Charm-effect of Charm Person use Wisdom while the charm-effect of a siren use Charisma? I think it's better to be consistant with that the saving throws are used for, just like with attribute tests. It's not like you force a door using Strength and when you in the next room want to smash open a window, the DM says "test Charisma"

I'd do it if the PC was a bard.