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The Lance

jgsugden

Legend
I'm with Hypersmurf on this rule situation. The FAQ is wrong. The rules are clear enough that the FAQ should be ignored. The Sage has a hard job ... and sometimes fails to pull it off.

However, before you argue about it too much, ask yourself if it matters to you. Can you actually get you your players to use mounted combat?

If you ask me, the rules for a lance should be a bit different when mounted. I wrote my own rules, though I've never been able to get a player to try mounted combat. I give a bonus to damage for the speed of the mount, but eliminate power attack & strength bonuses from the equation. The rider must make strength checks (with modifiers for the speed of the animal) to hold onto his lance and deal damage with his attack.
 

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
I think getting 1.5x Str bonus damage from using a 2-handed weapon with one hand is excessive rule-lawyering. I'm with the FAQ on this one.
I believe the spirit of the rule is that weapons wielded with 2 hands get 1.5x strength damage (except light weapons), while weapons wielded with 1 hand get 1x strength damage (barring off hand exceptions). The description of 2-handed weapons that just states 1.5x strength damage is a generalization that doesn't include the exception with the lance.
 

mvincent

Explorer
glass said:
The official rules are not with you. The official rules are in the PHB, not the FAQ. The FAQ should reflect the rule in the PHB. Where it does not, the FAQ is wrong.
The core books are not perfect, and they often allow for different interpretations. The writer's intent must be taken into account or you get can very strange results just by following RAW (I can give examples if needed). Prior to the FAQ clarification, I believe both interpretations were valid. I used your interpretation, in fact, and I likely will continue to as a house rule (for the lance only, if using no other weapons), but will otherwise follow their guidance.

I don't see the FAQ contradicting the rules in any example mentioned so far: merely clarifying what they intended... that the "one-handed", "two-handed" labels aren't actually the set-in-stone terminology that some of us thought. As always, use the rules however works best for you, but debating this point is now arguing against the publishers of the original rules, who have stated their intent (which is actually odd in a circular kinda way)

I asked the question because I thought someone had examples where the FAQ clarification genuinely conflicted with the PHB. So far the examples that have been shown have been unconvincing (to me, an outside observer). Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to provide input that (based on the examples so far), you might already be mind-locked on the issue and not viewing it objectively.
 

Krelios

First Post
ThirdWizard said:
Check it out (emphasis added).
POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon,
or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands,instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)
A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Note that it does not say "weapon wielded in two hands" it says "two-handed weapon." Is the lance a two-handed weapon? Yes. Then it gets 2x Str mod.
Um... Yes it does... check again...
 

Infiniti2000

First Post
Krelios said:
Um... Yes it does... check again...
Um, no it doesn't, check again. :)

Unless you're arguing that the lance is a "one-handed weapon wielded in two hands" it must be the other option, i.e. a "two-handed weapon." A lance is a two-handed weapon that can be wielded in one-hand while mounted. Nothing more, nothing else.

For those of you who buy the FAQ argument on this one, I urge you to reread Patryn's earlier post about HP. It pretty much nullifies that. ;)
 

ThirdWizard

First Post
Krelios said:
Um... Yes it does... check again...

A lance is a two-handed weapon. You can argue all day that a greatsword isn't a two-handed weapon, but that does not make it so. Likewise with a lance.
 

mvincent

Explorer
ThirdWizard said:
A lance is a two-handed weapon. You can argue all day that a greatsword isn't a two-handed weapon, but that does not make it so.
Note that when wielded one-handed (by a larger than medium character), a medium greatsword isn't a two-handed weapon, and so does not get many of the bonuses associated with a two-handed weapon (i.e. disarms, power-attacks etc.). However, it's HP still stay the same (because that is only reasonable, and WotC never implied otherwise).

Likewise with a lance.
A lance is a rules exception (as noted in it's description) that should have been clarified further (and it finally has been by WotC)
 

Ketjak

Malicious GM
What does two-handed mean?

The FAQ is attempting to rectify a problem caused by poor terminology. The problem is the SRD (and printed books) has one term (“two-handed”) in use to describe two different traits of a weapon. One use of the term references how a weapon is used (actually “a weapon wielded with two hands”) and the other the size of the weapon relative to its user (actually “a big weapon that normally requires two hands to use”). This is one more problem that should be ironed out in the next edition or errata’d in this one.

IMO the problem is with the use of the term to describe weapon sizes. It was probably done to keep the rules easier to read, without realizing it came at the expense of being harder to understand. Instead think of the weapon size categories (light, one-handed, two-handed) as 1, 2, 3 or least, lesser, great (to borrow the nice alphabetized magnitude sequencing I first saw used to describe dragonmark feats in Eberron CS).

Size 1 or least weapons (formerly light) cannot be wielded with two hands unless otherwise noted. (I am not certain how this change applies to weapons used by users in a different size category than the weapon was made for.) (Of course, this means the classic two-handed overhead dagger strike has only dramatic effects, so with a little editing the designers can keep STR bonus x 1.5 while eliminating the PA loophole. For now I’ll keep it simple.)

Size 2 or lesser weapons (formerly one-handed) may be wielded with two hands unless otherwise noted.

Size 3 or greater weapons (formerly two-handed) must be wielded with two hands unless otherwise noted. (The lance is a weapon that is “otherwise noted” to be wielded with one hand while mounted.)

Power Attack grants any weapon of any size that is wielded with two hands (could be a Size 3 greatsword or a Size 2 long sword) 2x damage, not the normal 1x.

If you use one term per meaning, the problem clearly rests in the Power Attack description. Here's the full PA feat, format courtesy of Creative Mountain Games:

SRD said:
POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite:
Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)
A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

My read is PA is intended to work with weapons wielded with two hands based on the entire first sentence of the benefits section. (A straight substitution becomes a bit confusing in the section covering double weapons and requires an educated guess as to the first replacement. That can be cleared up with a small change to the rules governing double weapon use to reflect the actual terminology.

SRD formatted by CMG said:
POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite:
Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special: If you attack with a (PICK ONE: weapon wielded with two hands OR Size 3 weapon), or (ARE THEY ARE RESTATING THE TWO-HANDED USE POWER ATTACK RULE HERE?) with a Size 2 weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a Size 1 weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a Size 2 weapon and a Size 1 weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a (GUESSING) Size 3 weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a weapon wielded with two hands.)
A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A full rewrite might look like:

modified SRD said:
POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite:
Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special: If you attack with a weapon wielded with two hands instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t use Power Attack with a Size 1 weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks). (Normally, you treat a double weapon as though each end were a weapon wielded with one hand. If you choose to use one end exclusively this round, treat that end as a weapon wielded with two hands.)
A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Once resolved, I’d say PA can’t give a 2x damage bonus (for a “weapon wielded with two hands”) out of a lance wielded by a mounted user, because though the lance is clearly a Size 3 (greater) weapon it is not wielded with two hands in that case. Whether or not the lance can be used with two hands while mounted is an exercise for the user.

Does that make sense?
 

werk

First Post
Isn't attacking with a lance so different from all other martial weapons that it should be classified as an exotic weapon? Seems that the lance doesn't fit well where it is.
 

Rewrite your special to be:

"If you attack with a Size 3 weapon with a Size 2 weapon wielded in two hands"

and you have the exact rules text.

A lance, no matter how you are using it, remains a size 3 weapon.
 

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