The Lance

[Ketjak]

OK, my "size N" description is, of course, relative to the intended user. A size 2 weapon for medium users is a medium weapon... it's a medium weapon even when an ogre uses it, but that makes it a size 1 weapon to the ogre (and the ogre has a -2 penalty while using it).

There's some de-wrinkling to be done.

A long sword intended for use by a full-sized adult human has the following size-related traits simultaneously:

- may be wielded with two hands
- may be wielded with one hand
- is a lesser weapon to medium users
- is a medium weapon

A lance for the same user has the following size-related traits:

- must be wielded with two hands
- may be wielded with one hand only while mounted
- is a greater weapon to medium users
- is a large weapon

A short sword for the same user has these size-related traits:

- may be wielded with two hands (must correlate with rules)
- may be wielded with one hand
- is a least weapon to medium users (and thus cannot be used with PA)
- is a small weapon

 

[billd91]

Note that when wielded one-handed (by a larger than medium character), a medium greatsword isn't a two-handed weapon, and so does not get many of the bonuses associated with a two-handed weapon (i.e. disarms, power-attacks etc.). However, it's HP still stay the same (because that is only reasonable, and WotC never implied otherwise).

A lance is a rules exception (as noted in it's description) that should have been clarified further (and it finally has been by WotC)

It's this comment about HP that breaks Patryn's argument. The sunder table's grouping by handedness of the weapons tells you how many HP to assign a weapon based on where it falls on the standard medium weapon table. So a lance has the hp of a 2-handed weapon whether it's wielded two handed by a medium size warrior on foot, one handed by a mounted warrior, or one handed by a walking ogre. But I don't see that table meaning much more than that.

The way I see the lance working, it has a special dispensation that it can be used as a one-handed weapon when the wielder is mounted. And thus is gets the same strength bonus as any other one-handed weapon.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

it's a medium weapon even when an ogre uses it, but that makes it a size 1 weapon to the ogre (and the ogre has a -2 penalty while using it).

Actually, what it means is that the ogre may use it like a size 1 weapon. It's still a medium size 2 weapon.

 

[Ketjak]

It's this comment about HP that breaks Patryn's argument. The sunder table's grouping by handedness of the weapons tells you how many HP to assign a weapon based on where it falls on the standard medium weapon table. So a lance has the hp of a 2-handed weapon whether it's wielded two handed by a medium size warrior on foot, one handed by a mounted warrior, or one handed by a walking ogre. But I don't see that table meaning much more than that.

The sunder table is farked and is perhaps the most egregious abuser/victim of the terminology problem. Worse, they could have used existing terminology to make it more clear! Convert light to small, one-handed to medium, and two-handed to large to make more sense there. Then apply the multiplier for different-sized weapons to other weapons.

Examples:
Human's dagger: tiny blade, HP 2
Human's short sword: small blade, HP 2
Human's long sword: medium blade, HP 5
Human's greatsword: large blade, HP 10
Human's greatsword wielded as a lesser/size 2 weapon by an ogre (at -2 to hit): large blade, HP 10
Ogre's greatsword: huge blade, HP 20
Human's lance: large wooden hafted weapon, HP 10

Silly semantics problems amuse and annoy me.

- ket

 

[Ketjak]

Actually, what it means is that the ogre may use it like a size 1 weapon. It's still a medium size 2 weapon.

Disagree with ya here on use only, Patryn. The reason: size relative to the user matters on some occasions. The Size 1 term merely reflects that to the ogre, the long sword is a Size 1 weapon. To the human it's Size 2. It's a dynamic trait, whereas the other traits (medium weapon, may be wielded with two hands, may be wielded with one hand) remain static.

Thus the reason the same long sword behaves differently (read: has different traits) depending on the user:

Long sword "Joe" wielded by a human: medium blade, Size 2, may be wielded with two hands, may be wielded with one hand, hardness 10, HP 5
Long sword "Joe" wielded by an ogre: medium blade, Size 1 (no Power Attack, but it can now be used in a grapple!), may be wielded with two hands, may be wielded with one hand, hardness 10, HP 5

It has more traits of course, but at the moment those are all that are important and size-related. IIRC.

 

[Storyteller01]

When the rules conflist, common sense applies:

COnsidering a human is the wielder, and think on the original question...

Look at someone using a lance. Are they using it two handed? No, except for rare exceptions...

Look at weapons used two handed. Do they do extra damage if used one handed? No! Matter of fact, it's markedly less (swing an axe one handed, then two handed. PLease, no hand axe comparisons... )

So, should a lance use one handed (a two handed weapon used in one hand) get added strength damage? Hmmmmm..........


YMMV

 

[Storyteller01]

Isn't attacking with a lance so different from all other martial weapons that it should be classified as an exotic weapon? Seems that the lance doesn't fit well where it is.

Many have house ruled it. I've used "mounted weapon only, Wielders Dex to hit, animals Str to damage. No power attack benefits used.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Note that when wielded one-handed (by a larger than medium character), a medium greatsword isn't a two-handed weapon, and so does not get many of the bonuses associated with a two-handed weapon (i.e. disarms, power-attacks etc.). However, it's HP still stay the same (because that is only reasonable, and WotC never implied otherwise).

Well, sure.

A medium two-handed blade has 10 hp.

A medium one-handed blade has 5 hp.

A large weapon has twice as many hit points as the equivalent medium weapon.

A human wielding a medium greatsword treats it as two-handed weapon - ten hit points.

An ogre wielding a medium greatsword treats it as a large one-handed weapon - ten hit points.

Where's the problem?

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Look at weapons used two handed. Do they do extra damage if used one handed.

Well considering you can't use/wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, I think the point is moot.

 

[Storyteller01]

Well considering you can't use/wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, I think the point is moot.

There are exceptions (Bastard sword, katana, etc).


But thinking beyond the book a second, you can wield a wood axe one handed (either unwieldy [-4 to hit by the RAW], or by choking up on the handle [short strokes for control; better than breaking out a knife] ). Speaking from experience, or stupidity depending on your view.

Those that wield in one hand (for whatever reason) don't do any additional damage.