The "Low Magic"/"Rare Magic" Conundrum

[Slife]

Well that depends. Did they have to stop camers and run another take after he left stage, or was he invisible all the way through the scene. I mean it costs money to stop and restart those cameras you know. I mean, you try negotiating with the folks from SAG. Sheesh!

BTW: I think that the special effects limit is a really interesting twist.

OK, so I'll duck behind this tree, and cast my spell for invisibility where nobody can see me.





IIRC, the special effects thing is being used for the magic rules in the Dresden files RPG. It's still being worked on, so I don't know how they resolve that particular problem.

 

[Brimshack]

The production assistant and the gaffer both thank you.

 

[WhatGravitas]

BTW: I think that the special effects limit is a really interesting twist.

Ironically, it means stopping a heart is easier than igniting a piece of paper with magic... reminds me very much of Mage's paradox (same principle - the more obvious magic is, the more you have to pay/suffer/whatever)... would love to see a well-working d20 version of it.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

This is why I like magic point systems with a lonnnnng recharge time. A wizard has the choice of using magic during the adventure and being more or less tapped out when he gets to the BBEG, or he can save his magic for a nova at the end of the adventure. I like this aproach because 1) it's closer to most fantasy literature than Vancian magic, 2) a wizard can still use magic thorughout the adventure if he so chooses, and 3) it encourages wizards to find clever non-magical means of dealing with challenges rather than just throwing another spell at the problem.

This doesn't work if you can fully recharge after a night's sleep though - the recharge time should be about a month if the wizard gets fully tapped out. This is long enough that it's not practical to fully recharge during an adventure and short enough to be able to recharge between adventures.

 

[WhatGravitas]

This doesn't work if you can fully recharge after a night's sleep though - the recharge time should be about a month if the wizard gets fully tapped out. This is long enough that it's not practical to fully recharge during an adventure and short enough to be able to recharge between adventures.

The problem of this approach is that it makes mages in time-pressure campaigns a lot weaker, and makes mages in long-term campaign more powerful.

This doesn't mean that the concept is bad, it is just not implemented into the current game design/adventure paradigms - but I like this idea very much...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Spellcasters/magic users/wizards of fiction that I've noticed use:

1) A lot of ritual magic that would take too much time to be fun in an RPG.

2) Use a small number of effects repeatedly. This could be emulated in a Vancian system by upping the duration of certain spells so that a spell's effects could be used repeatedly against a number of targets...but with fewer spell slots. Thus, for example, a Magic Missile might have a duration of 1 hour per level, but a 20th level mage might only have 3 1st level slots. He can throw magic missiles all day long, but he won't be super flexible.

3) Instead of a bunch of spells, they also seem to have abilities that just seem to be usable at will. Minor hypnotic suggestions, seeing in the dark, seeing auras, telepathy and other powers have all been used by fictional spellcasters at will, and are not modeled by spells, but rather as supernatural abilities. This would also fit well with the modified Vancian system, above.

4) Some spellcasters have abilities that fatigue them. This could be the result of an exhausting ritual that demands fasting and long hours of wakefulness, or even permanent or temporary mystical draining of vitality...summonings and divinations are often like this, as are major spells. Sometimes, manipulating the magic of a particular spell or ritual is so draining that it may only be performed once in the caster's career- it either burns them out, drives them insane, or kills them.

 

[Emirikol]

Gneech:

You hit the nail on the head. We're looking for a way to play it while not making a wizard no fun to play.

Our NON-CONAN-RPG campaign is just hitting the higher level s(10+). I'll let you know how our system works out.

It's based around having spellcasters being multiclassed and having a few spells that are 'bumped up a level' so that they're not out of reach, but just less appealing. So far so good.

jh

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[shilsen]

My two bits:

If playing D&D, don't get hung up about trying to emulate magic from most mythology and fantasy.

If you want to play a game and emulate magic from most mythology and fantasy, don't play D&D.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I don't think it's a huge conundrum, but rather that D&D hasn't really ever tried to address these issues. Of course, alternate systems have. For that matter, Monte's article about splitting magical effects into a bunch of always-on buffs and a select few castable spells suggests how you can more closely approximate this legend and fantasy trope in D&D.

Personally, I think you get there with something like the True Sorcery/Iron Heroes route:

1) A caster class with excellent skills, decent HD (d4+2/level), a medium BAB and defense bonus, and access to feats that allow you to heal, buff your allies, create traps and poisons, et cetera.

2) "Always on" aspects of power that you can use whenever you like to create subtle and/or minor effects. In some cases, these are a blanket substitute for the raft of lower-level attack spells like the orbs, magic missile, etc.; in others, they're just a cool effect (gain a bonus to a skill check, walk without touching the ground, go without food and drink, etc.).

3) A flexible array of difficult-to-cast spells that are moderately tough to pull off with substantial casting time, and REALLY tough to do on the fly. Spells are also fatiguing.

I think those get you pretty close to the "classic fantasy" model. You can be helpful to the party all the time, and every once in a while do something REALLY incredible.

 

[Emirikol]

Not having these significantly changes game play above about 3rd to 5th level (for the worse IMO) making D&D work at low magic requires patches. If the patches cover the needed ground (IMO extra feats, skills and a level based defense) the system works great --
if not it changes for the worse, again YMMV. My personal patches are :
Stat bonus alterations (2 @4,8,12,16,20)..
This allows me to hand out 1 to 3 items per character without hurting game balance and puts magical back in magic

Ace, how long have you been using these patches and how have they worked out for you?

I may steal some of your tweaks

jh


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