The main problem I have with Kenzer's Geanavue

[MEG Hal]

Unfortunately, I lost all my enthusiasm for Bluffside after reading in another post (by the book's proofreader) how it is filled with such wacky and colorful NPCs as "Carl, the Gray Ooze," "Kiki McGurk" and a polymorphed white dragon who spends his days getting sloshed at the bar.

I am now, officially, afraid... Very afraid!

Carl the Gray Ooze and company are not what I am looking for in a fantasy game. I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind would, but to each their own. YMMV. I'll still give it a look, but my expectations are now lower than the time I waited in line to see Leo in THE BEACH, or J-Lo in THE CELL. Of course, I ended up liking both those films...

Before yo refuse to look at it, he was sighting some names in the book, Carl is a gray ooze worshipped by some of the people pf Bluffside, we do not actually have a gray ooze NPC in this city, and some of the NPC's are a liitle unusual, but then look at these boards . We wanted to make it a living city and so put some colorful characters in it....I think you should look it over before you judge it, and Curtis was not the proofer of Bluffside (Interludes:BEtB, yes) but a contributor, so even Curtis does not know what made the final cut .
Again, do not buy Bluffside if you do not want, but all I am asking is for people to look at it, I think once you see how it is laid out and detailed, you may rethink that decision.

 

[Hand of Evil]

This thread is turning into Geanavue vs Bluffside. But I think it is important to point out that this may be comparing apples and oranges.

Geanavue is a single city in the Kingdoms of Kalamar game world. It can be ported but you would have to make some adjustments.

Bluffside is a mega-city (6 in all?) that has been designed to be dropped into any game.

Geanavue rates as a lawful good city. It is clean and controlled.

Bluffside is more chaotic, a lot of things happening it is a living city that will grow and interact with the PCs.

--------------------

I like the Geanavue book, it has a lot of information in it and I can easily use it in my games.

I think I am going to love Bluffside. Yes, still checking the mail for my copy but from everything I have read it is going to be a major area for my players.

 

[der_kluge]

I listed out some of the more esoteric things in Bluffside. Most of it is very *normal*. The gray-ooze worshippers, and the white dragon hanging out at the bar are some extremes. There's a host of "average" joes who makes shoes, pole-arms, and run the local militia. All the standard stuff.

But like Hand of Evil said, we're not trying to compare our book to Geanavue. Compare them separately and on their own terms.

If you still hate both of them, just wait a couple of weeks for Freeport, and I think WindHaven will be out soon, too.

More cities than you can shake a stick at!

 

[MEG Hal]

I also was not doing Geanavue vs Bluffside there are always a need for cities so I feel any good city is a city for my campaign, so please do not think I am telling you not to get Geanavue, but telling you a bit about Bluffside since I saw some references to it on this thread. As a earlier poster stated the HB Freeport is coming also!!!! More cities the better, need to go from A to B but you need an A and B in order to make that work .

 

[kenjib]

I have not so much trouble accepting it, as finding it an interesting place to adventure...

Think more creatively. If a city is already trashed there's not much emotional investment in it for the characters. With Geanavue you have a city that the players can feel safe and at home in and come to love. That way when the invading legions of the Imperial Army sacks, pillages, and burns the city to the ground in it's first move to expand into the wealthy Bay, or when the evil cult living in the sewers completes an ancient ritual to swallow the city into the abyss, the players actually care a great deal more because they know the beauty of what was lost.

Kalamar has a certain approach to design that I really admire. If the city was already in the middle of a war you don't have many options with the city, right? It's a city at war. If it was a city in the clutches of an evil cult you likewise don't have as many options. Instead of confining you to one story you get a setting that you can take as a DM and write your own stories with. Furthermore, they provide so much depth and detail that you can actually figure out what would happen if the city did go to war, or if an evil cult seized power, because you know how the political and economic scenes work and the personality and goals of most of the major players. In addition, the means for these things to happen are all built into the setting because Kenzer is really good at seeding countless little plot hooks into the book. You have to look carefully though, because they are mentioned briefly. This is a good thing for me, as it gives me the option to pick up on those I like and ignore those I don't like.

The choice of lower character level and lower magic quantity reinforce this philosophy. It is more easily adaptable to your needs because it doesn't push as much on you. Like Mr. Kenzer said, it's easier to add power than it is to take it away.

Geanavue (and the Kalamar setting in general) takes the more Taoist approach of the uncarved block. In it's more simple state it is far more useful and flexible than that which is already preshaped into a fixed form. I find that the Kalamar books tend to inspire my creativity more than any other publisher at the moment, since they make suggestions and hint at things in all kinds of different directions, and that's just the kind of approach that I like. I prefer something that I can easily take and make my own, and Kalamar seems more flexible in this regard than other settings.

I don't mean to imply that the other approach is inferior, however. Everyone has a different style and looks to get something different out of a product. For some people, getting something right out of the box with a big high fantasy story built in and ready to run without much work is a high priority.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Bluffside: Don't worry, I'll still look at it when it comes out. I look at everything, even stuff I have preconceived notions about. Perhaps with my newfound sense of lowered expectations, I'll end up liking it!

Geanavue: Okay, kenjib and the others who expressed similar opinions have a point. Geanavue does allow for you to do anything you want with it. You are not stuck with major built-in conflicts like some settings. This can be a good thing, a very good thing, unless you want all that stuff pre-built and ready to go "out of the box." Then Geanavue becomes a problem for the DM. I can (at least now) understand both approaches and see them as valid design choices.

Perhaps I am going about it all wrong, and instead of changing Geanavue radically, I should leave it mostly as is and ripe for corruption. Consider it a Zhentil Keep in the making, before Manshoon, Fzoul and Bane got their claws into it... Okay, but I'm still axing all the giants, gnomes and dwarves!

Thanks for presenting me with such a well-thought out argument, kenjib, although I'm tempted to be offended by your opening line, "think more creatively." That is, I would be offended, if your post hadn't actually made me think more creatively, LOL.

 

[sword-dancer]

I haven`t get Genavue, maybe i can change this, it had usually a few weeks from the US to Germany and WoTC stuff hangs in th
e air i heard some WoTC Amigo problems?

Everybody loves the ruler

What you didn´t love your King, hm ....Traitor.
Point is the phrase King through Gods Grace wasn`t a hollow word, it was the base of the divine Right of Kings to rule, who wouldn`t love the from God chosen abnd appointed ruler for his people.
Our beloved King... was a often used phrase.

Everybody loves each other... The few that don't are either largely ineffective in fomenting any serious (city-wide) trouble or if they are in a position of power, are more wrapped-up in their own affairs than in any truly outrageous schemes that endanger the city. A few want the ruler's son to take over so they can manipulate him--pretty standard fare--but their manipulations still run toward their own mercantile interests than in using it to start a war, trade embargo, or anything. A few evil cultists also hope to manipulate the ruler's son, but even then, it is just to popularize, legitimize and expand their own church interests (and wealth), not anything major as mentioned above.

Really plausible and realistc, why would person of ranking, power , wealth and influence endanger their own hometurf?
They want to better their own affairs not to cause havoc for havocs cause (or to be blunt do evil for evils cause, how bland, borin and unimaginitive. isn`t it ?)

A few want the ruler's son to take over so they can manipulate him--pretty standard fare--but their manipulations still run toward their own mercantile interests than in using it to start a war, trade embargo, or anything. A few evil cultists also hope to manipulate the ruler's son, but even then, it is just to popularize, legitimize and expand their own church interests (and wealth), not anything major as mentioned above

Trade embargo? Why should an intelligent, well educated and well travelled merchant did such example of stupidity.
Trade Privilegies good, trade Monopols perfect, war is dangerous and costly, hinders trade made the goods rare and expensive, guards are more needed and charge more....

A few evil cultists also hope to manipulate the ruler's son, but even then, it is just to popularize, legitimize and expand their own church interests (and wealth), not anything major as mentioned above

Oh they are for a longer and more useful goal than only to cuse havoc, Power, influence and wealth,
I would say they are intelligent!

There's hardly any crime, and no organized crime to speak of.

Medieval City medievalt punishment, thieves must be good to get not caught.
Organised crime, how believable would you think that is?
With mindreading spells, mindcontrolling spells, artisan/craftsmen guilds who would use arms to defend(this means counterstrikes and precounterattacks) their guildbrothers, Merchants who had armed guards in their household etc.
no human rights activists for the mobmembers to cry when they are interrogated without lawyer (tortured).

There is no ghetto in the city walls (one called Loona is provided several miles away where cargo is loaded/unloaded for transport). The ghetto has one (slim) chapter devoted to it and was the only interesting chapter for me in the whole book... .

As German I´m definitely not the unbiaseds person about ghettos,
I wouldn`t see a ghetto as an standardnecessity in a medieval city, a quarter for the poor or maybe even a slum could take the same role perhaps even better

Unfortunately, it is not mapped, and Kenzer wants us to buy it (Loona) as a separate supplement in September... which I probably will do, but am not happy about. I would much rather have gotten the map and info in one product (seeing as how closely related they are) and paid an extra $5-10 than wait six months and shell out another $15-25. To me, it drastically reduces the utility of the setting not to have all the info at once and in the same place.

There you have a point, I would prefer one complete book over two.

There is a guarded public toilet on pretty much every street corner... we don't even have that in the 21st century... how likely is this in a medieval or renaissance city?

Roman citys had it other antiques maybe also, unskilled labor wascheap believe me.
If you prefer the sanitaries of MA, we would need to include the plagues also, so Kenzer included an argument for the better hygienic, since it gives dwarves there well believable.

Many names are either stupid or too difficult to pronounce, such as Foobia (stupid, IMO) or aauranadoruum (too many syllables, have to think about how to say it, does not roll off the tongue). This a major flaw in the KoK setting, as far as I am concerned!

This is IMPHO definitely a matter of taste

The main bad guys threatening the city are fire giants up in the nearby mountains, but not to worry! The city is protected by friendly stone giants! Don't forget the legions of dwarven axemen and gnomish crossbowmen on patrol!

Their trading routes are also protected, their fields and herds?
Comes the protection for nothing?

Don't forget the legions of dwarven axemen and gnomish crossbowmen on patrol!

Whats the problem with this, they are someone posted refugees, milkitary business is a natural choice under this circumstances, and explains also the nonexisting mob.

There are (barely mentioned) pirates (not very far off on their island base) and undead (Giilia, City of Bats ruled by an elven vampire). But the most trouble from the vampire's realm is starving peasants that sneak across the border to steal food each winter? Um, if they go to all that trouble to get across the border, why don't they just stay in Geanavue and not live in fear of the undead anymore? And if I had a major pirate base just off my shores, I would send the navy in to smash them to flinders and ensure the stability of my shipping lanes. The surrounding "bad guys" don't make sense to me. Okay, there's the fire giants up in the hillls but chances are high the PCs will have no interaction with them outside of hack-n-slash. Fire giants themselves (who cannot enter the city) leave very little possibility of political intrigue, diplomacy, or any of the things that make city adventures fun.

Reading the Gilia desription in KoK, I see the following reason fear for their families!
Fear to be let in the communitie from accepted or welcomed we wouldn`t hope to dream.(vampire controlled)
Read RIFTS VAmpire Kingdoms, Mercenary or Coalition wars for Vampires.
Had genavue a Navy? Not in the KoK-book.
Did they know where the pirates base is, their ships etc.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

The pirate base is on an island close to Geanavue's shoreline (within 30 miles, I would say from memory, not having the map in front of me). It's the *only* island around! How hard is that to find? Of course, I do not have the KoK main book, so maybe there is a logical explanation for this?

Your point about the humans from Giilia being charmed is one I had not thought of, as that would require a lot of vampires and a lot of time, day in and day out charming folks. Still, even if most were not charmed, some would be, and there would be noway for anyone from Geanavue to know the difference and so I guess they would stake anybody that came from Giilia, just to be safe!

 

[kenjib]

Thanks for presenting me with such a well-thought out argument, kenjib, although I'm tempted to be offended by your opening line, "think more creatively." That is, I would be offended, if your post hadn't actually made me think more creatively, LOL.

Oops. I'm sorry about that - my mistake. I honestly didn't mean to offend you or to imply that you are not creative. I know that it's far from the truth.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Oops. I'm sorry about that - my mistake. I honestly didn't mean to offend you or to imply that you are not creative. I know that it's far from the truth.

No harm done. And I see my "creative" reputation precedes me, hehe!