The market dying?

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Listen to every song that's ever asserted that rock will never die before pooh-poohing mearls's death-cult theory -- I think the mistake he made was to limit it to "geek pastime".

SF is dying. RPGs are dying. Rock is dying. So are you and I; it's a fact of life. If the corpse of D&D fertilizes the soil and gives rise to descendants that carry on what was best about it, that's okay with me.
 

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eyebeams said:
This is the kind of content-free thinking that's a persistent problem in SF circles and in this thread, too. Debunking the idea that SF is declining with licensed novel sales doesn't answer the concerns SF fans actually have.
Man if you are calling it "content-free" then you obviously have never read a "Year's Best" Review. The facts and figures that go into that detailed annual de-bunking are tremendous.

You seem to want everyone to trust your knowledge while you're free to blow theirs off.
Sorry, it don't work that way.
I can respect that you may not be at liberty to share confidential information.
But you're going to have to respect that if your evidence isn't admissible in court, you're going to lose the case.


I agree completely that there is a broad market decline. But this "the sky is falling" mentality seems way over the top.

Even by your claim of four declining years, it seems like a pretty good situation. 3E and OGL started a boom in gaming in late 99. Give that two years of wild ride followed by four years of trending back to reality. That's not even half empty.

Sure, as the market restore itself to equilibrium, theres going to be a lot adjustment. And, unfortunately it is human nature to quickly begin to take a boon for granted. And when that boon turns back to a simple neutral status, it gets treated by some as a catastrophy. But that doesn't make their viewpoint reasonable. And that applies whether you are a big dog who has to re-adapt, or if you're just a fringe writer who doesn't have the edge to last in a smaller market. Anybody getting pushed out now is 95% likely to be somebody who never would have gotten "in" in the first place if it weren't for the boom cycle.
 

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
So...IS the market dying? From this thread, you can't even tell what the market is, not to mention who we're actually going to accept it telling the truth on whether or not its even shrinking.
You can always try with your purely subjective view. For me, personally, it means that there's still much more good RPG material available than I can responsibly buy. This means my buffet looks great. I got a bit picky, but that's not bad for my wallet :). The only debacle that somehow affected me was that of Green Ronin and their distributor. After 3 canceled orders, my urge to get hold of a copy of Blue Rose cooled substantially down; but thats a minor discomfort.

In principle, it wouldn't even affect me much if "the market" mysteriously vanished overnight. Some of my colleagues just forced me to DM for them; they want to learn D&D. I noticed that I had difficulties to decide what to use; I could most probably play with them for many years without the need to fall back on my own ideas, not that I wanted to go that way.

And somehow a statement like that from eyebeams about Chaosium, as bleak as this might look from a publisher's view, it's in one way comforting for a fan. The hobby lives on even when publishing itself becomes a hobby. Is the market dead then? Well, decide for yourself :).
 

mearls said:
I have a theory that every geek pastime has a sort of apocalyptic death cult attached to it. Just as there's religious cults utterly convinced that the end of the world is just around the corner, in RPGs, SF, TCGs, whatever, there's always going to be a hard core that almost seems like they *need* their hobby to be in dire straits.
Here are true words.

Not just in geek pastimes (although that's certainly a big place for it), but everywhere you'll see pessimists who say the end is nigh. Before gamingreport.com required people to register to post, any bad news from any source would be immediately followed by a torrent of posts saying that the RPG industry was dying, that WotC was about to fold, that in 6 months there would be no RPG's still in print, or my personal favorite "In a year we'll all have new hobbies". I'm a little dulled to gloom & doom talk because while I've only been gaming since 1997, I've been hearing nothing prognostications of imminent doom from certain quarters the entire time (including the dawn of 3e, when I heard predictions that it would be "the Edsel of gaming and destroy D&D" or that the OGL was some insidious WotC plot to steal everybody's works from their web pages and message board posts and make money off of them without paying the fans they took them from). In fact, in the 8 years I've been a gamer, I can't remember a single time I've heard many good predictions about the industry.

Some people say RPG's are dying because MMO's and virtual reality will replace them "in the future". Of course, "in the future", electronic commerce was supposed to replace all cash, eBooks were supposed to replace all print books, we were all supposed to be shopping online for everything from groceries to cars, and TV will be interactive and we'll be shopping on TV. Sometimes you just need butts in the seats, and no virtual world will ever truly replace to the comaraderie of a few friends around a table slinging dice and playing a game. Just like online poker hasn't replaced live poker, virtual chess hasn't replaced real chess, and we still read hardcopy books, we'll still play actual D&D.

Just like electronic commerce experienced a huge surge in the late '90's as everybody moved to online sales of everything, and the buzz was that "brick & mortar" had no future, investors poured fortunes into e-Commerce, thinking it was the wave of the future. Then the bust came: it's not practical to shop for a lot of things online, and people still like to physically examine articles before they buy them and to get them from local stores instead of having it shipped to them. People decried this as a bust, a crash, but in reality it was the market normalizing itself. Some people succeeded, but only by doing things that could not be done before. Amazon and eBay were the two most famous success stories, the former for having a selection no physical store could match with highly competitive prices, the latter for being a collector's dream as a sort of ultimate electronic flea market. A failure would be Tandy Leather, a chain of leatherworking stores that in late '98 shut down their nationwide chain of stores to only offer leatherworking supplies online, since that was The Way of the Future. It was a failure, as raw crafting materials were impractical to buy that way, and the experience of selecting your materials and getting help from the employees was quite valuable. Years later, they've begun to reopen their chain of stores.

This is very much like what the RPG industry has been through in the last few years. Back in 2000, the d20 STL and D&D 3e changed the market. Now, every homebrewer and wannabe game writer could make D&D compatible RPG's and sell them. Since almost every GM thinks they are an excellent writer of material, almost every one tried to produce something to sell (or so it seems). The quality of 3e gave D&D a fresh infusion of life, as gamers came back to D&D after sometimes long absences, new gamers flooded in, and other gamers were invigorated with the new rule set. Riding on these coattails were many other companies, who converted product lines to d20, trying to ride the wave, or they produced wave after wave of poorly written drek. Then things started to fade. People realized that quality counts, and just being d20 isn't any sign of quality. Companies who got into the industry to take advantage of d20 are feeling the pinch as the winds that power them die down, and the consumers go back to trusted names they know will bring them quality and entertainment. WotC and White Wolf are the first names on that list.
 

eyebeams said:
Net or gross? You can't effectively link sales to returns in such a short period of time.
Why can't he? Simply because it doesn't prove the hobby is dying?
So, any evidence that contradicts your view is simply wrong or wishful thinking?

Are you argueing this from some personal attachment to a segment of the market that is declining?

Really, if you can't view any other opinion or information as valid, then why are people still responding to this thread?

So Mearls can be attacked by others for posting what he has seen? But it's okay, because it's not really an attack if you say you meant it to include all the WotC guys posting on this thread.

It's amazing that a thread that really SHOULD be facts and figures is instead consisting almost entirely of argueing over semantics and avoiding what people actually post.

So, I guess the Market can't be "Dying" simply because it's not Alive.
 

Vocenoctum said:
It's amazing that a thread that really SHOULD be facts and figures is instead consisting almost entirely of argueing over semantics and avoiding what people actually post.

If there were reliable figures, people would post them, but one of the long term problems of the game industry is that such figures don't exist. Most companies are privately held and they don't share their sales information. Many retailers don't have POS systems and the ones that do have no mechanism to share their numbers. So we are left with the sales numbers we do know (our own), imperfect info like the Comics and Games Retailer numbers, and what evidence can be gathered from the other tiers (retailers and distributors). It doesn't create a slick report full of citations that can be posted and analyzed, but it is possible to discover and understand certain trends in the industry. And when you are hearing the same thing from 99% of your sources, it doesn't take a genius to draw the correct conclusion. Again, let me stress that I would not say the industry is dying. That's just hyperbole.
 

wingsandsword said:
Some people say RPG's are dying because MMO's and virtual reality will replace them "in the future". Of course, "in the future", electronic commerce was supposed to replace all cash, eBooks were supposed to replace all print books, we were all supposed to be shopping online for everything from groceries to cars, and TV will be interactive and we'll be shopping on TV.
Your analogies have little relevence to the future of RPGs. I can just as easily point out how 8-track cassettes, tapes, horse and buggies and Commodore 64s have gone the way of the dodo. RPGs are are a niche hobby and they were to disappear or be replaced, the world at large won't even bat an eyelash.
Sometimes you just need butts in the seats, and no virtual world will ever truly replace to the comaraderie of a few friends around a table slinging dice and playing a game. Just like online poker hasn't replaced live poker, virtual chess hasn't replaced real chess, and we still read hardcopy books, we'll still play actual D&D.
You're forgetting one important point - D&D is a fantasy roleplaying game. It will eventually be replaced by the computer/VR because it can create a level of immersion that just can't be replicated with grid map and inch tall miniatures. Poker and chess don't gain anything by using a computer, you actually take a lot of the fun out of the game if you can't "read" your opponent. Books haven't taken off on the computer for a number of reasons - expense, portability, readability... That may change however.

FRPGs are simply tailor-made to be replaced by MMORPGs/VR, and as I've pointed out, are really just in their infancy right now. VR is what will finish it off.
 



A'koss said:
Your analogies have little relevence to the future of RPGs. I can just as easily point out how 8-track cassettes, tapes, horse and buggies and Commodore 64s have gone the way of the dodo. RPGs are are a niche hobby and they were to disappear or be replaced, the world at large won't even bat an eyelash.
You're forgetting one important point - D&D is a fantasy roleplaying game. It will eventually be replaced by the computer/VR because it can create a level of immersion that just can't be replicated with grid map and inch tall miniatures. Poker and chess don't gain anything by using a computer, you actually take a lot of the fun out of the game if you can't "read" your opponent. Books haven't taken off on the computer for a number of reasons - expense, portability, readability... That may change however.

FRPGs are simply tailor-made to be replaced by MMORPGs/VR, and as I've pointed out, are really just in their infancy right now. VR is what will finish it off.

I don't know about that. Like you say, poker and chess lose a lot over the internet. I would say that DnD does as well. Without a live DM, your choices and freedoms are incredibly limited to whatever is coded into the game. Even with a fantasticly responsive program, there will be limitations on what you as a player can do. Unless, of course, you're talking about some sort of sensorium VR set up with smell and touch and whatnot. But, then again, we're several decades from that sort of thing, so, it's a tad early to talk about computers replacing DnD.

Right now, there are lots of people who do both. It's not an either/or choice. Lots of gamers come from things like Everquest and start into gaming. There is quite a bit of crosspollination between CRPG's and PnP games.

Who knows? Maybe people will reject the idea of immersive VR and go for the face to face contact because they are so jaded by online life. I'm quite sure there are some grognards out there who will do exactly that.
 

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