The market dying?

[mearls]

Gods, if that were only true. But that isn't how the standard book retail end works. If I order 100 units the invoice for ALL 100 units comes due in 30 days (on average). I may however have "returns privelages" for 180 to 365 days (again -- on average). Then I can wait for anywhere from 30 to 120 days to get my refund back (that is if I can even get a cash refund -- I might only get "credit" to future purchases).

It's completely possible that I'm totally mistaken. It's also possible that it's an accounting thing that we do on our end to hedge against returns. If TSR had huge problems with returns, I wouldn't be surprised if something was put in place to deal with that. Our paperback/fiction division obviously does lots of business with major book chains, so returns have always been something that WotC has to look at.

 

[A'koss]

I think a bigger and more interesting question is, "Will technology ever kill off tabletop gaming?"

I don't think it will. If it was going to, it would've done so already. We've had computer RPGs since 1981. We've had MMORPGs since 1997.

Strongly Disagree. We're only seeing the beginning of what computers can really do for a RPG. The graphics, the AI and the "immersion factor" are still very crude, but are beginning to hint at what is possible. Think of what is available now graphics-wise to playing a game that can render LotR (the movie) level graphics in real-time. Now, imagine (10-15 years hence) if you could don a pair a VR glasses and "enter" such a world.

Short of some radical, singularity-level change in technology, I think RPGs are too social in nature for a computer interface to replace them. As long as people like to interact face to face, I don't see RPGs as a form going anywhere.

I think face-to-face interaction with your friends will always be there... just not necessarily for RPGs.

But here's the catch.

The big "secret" of RPG publishing is that gamers don't need us. At all. RPGs are designed for the participants to act as game designers. IMO, RPG books are a real tough sell to gamers. Unless a publisher does a bang up job on a book, gamers just won't bother. They'll stick to their homebrew material, thank-you-very-much.

Agreed. Though I think the greater concern yet will be attracting new, long-term players to the game.

I think D&D is a hell of a lot tougher to kill than anyone can imagine.

Oh, it's a tough nut, thank goodness for that. But unfortunately, as a fantasy roleplaying game, it isn't necessarily best implemented in a face to face environment like poker or chess.

 

[tetsujin28]

Computers for rpgs = meh. No beer = not an rpg, to me.

 

[wingsandsword]

Your analogies have little relevence to the future of RPGs. I can just as easily point out how 8-track cassettes, tapes, horse and buggies and Commodore 64s have gone the way of the dodo.

In each of those cases, what replaced them was better in almost every concievable way. 8-Tracks were inferior in every way to cassette tapes and CD's, later computers were superior in every way to Commodore 64.

Playing a tabletop RPG has many intangible elements. Unless you can create quite literally a holodeck level simulation, you're not going to begin to touch things like the camaraderie of a group of friends sitting around a table having fun.

Call me a strong skeptic on people saying that "In The Future, It Will All Be Online". I saw people claiming that many times, in many fields, and it never pans out. I've been hearing it for over a decade now, and online alternatives to existing activities/entities compliment existing options, they almost never completely replace them.

Gamers are also a group that tends to be stingy, and while the more dedicated ones might collect books voraciously, others only buy one or two ever. Some attempt to move the entire hobby over to some radical VR interface would have huge start-up costs, major software issues, initial costs for adopters, possible subscription costs. No amount of VR compares to actually being in a place with an actual person, and for many gamers our games are a major social activity, and we aren't exactly eager to trade our major social activity for sitting alone in our basements hooked to a VR rig online (please reference the "WOTC Ad" thread going on now).

Take all the problems of a MMORPG and superimpose them on a gaming group (lag, bugs, explots, system crashes, ect.). Throw in how hard it is to run a "pickup" game when everybody needs computers and VR rigs, no impromptu games anymore. Much more GM prep time (or only running prefab adventures and worlds) since instead of having a few loose notes on a town, now it all has to be programmed in and instead of a GM improvising an NPC quickly it has to be programmed all in advance.

The Tabletop RPG medium has enough advantages that electronic games can never completely replace it. Compliment it, yes. Replace it, no.

 

[Hussar]

Computers for rpgs = meh. No beer = not an rpg, to me.

And I think Testujin hits it on the head right there. For many players, it's a chance to get together with some friends and make a night of it. I know it certainly was for me for more than a decade, so, I don't think you can discount the social aspect of PnP games. I think that MMORPGS are going to complement PnP games, not out compete them.

 

[tetsujin28]

It's not that I don't enjoy playing NWN or the like, but I miss the lame jokes, the beer, and the general comradery.

 

[TwistedBishop]

Playing a tabletop RPG has many intangible elements.

Speaking as a person who was addicted heavily to Everquest for three years (I was spending at least 12 hours a day on it, and was deeply involved in the EQ End Game), and then has tried most every other MMORPG on the market since, I can safely say the MMORPG experience is almost an entirely different one than an RPG.

MMORPGs are mainly concerned with busy-work and competition. 100s of hours grinding exp in some dungeon, sitting there and pulling creatures methodically to your group, to gain a level. And then when you've got those levels, you can spend another 100 hours gaining keys to the dungeon where high-level loot drops. And then when you get those keys, you can spend months in that dungeon trying to farm out the premium armor and weapons, but only if you can muster raid parties of 60 people for hours on end. Oh and every step of the way, you're up against other players trying to get the same limited resource. The boss mob which drops 1 key per kill, and only spawns once a week, for example. Those creatures dropping the high-end loot in the keyed dungeon? They're a week respawn too. Etc etc.

Compare that with RPGs which let you get right to the heart of the interesting action, and which make you actually the hero, not some random schlub in a raid guild.

MMORPGs are also a strictly pre-designed experience. Sometimes that works, EQ certainly had some interesting temples and quests, but in general you're playing someone else's vision. And there's only so much of that content to see per game. When you've beaten the End Dungeon, well, there's not much else to do but farm the hell out of it. Killing the Supreme Bad Guy, who never stays dead, over and over again makes the experience lose a bit of luster.

RPGs let the group, through the GM, decide what kind of world they'll play in, and what style it will contain. You'll also never run into a situation where the GM says "okay you've finished the three adventures I bought, feel like playing that Carrionette one again?"

There's also the fact that MMORPGs really have nothing to do with Roleplaying. In those three years of EQ, over thirteen thousand hours of play time, I never once saw someone act in character. A character is a pre-defined set of abilities, that's all. There's no such thing as an "adventure" in a MMORPG. At best you'll find a quest which requires gathering several items from several different boss mobs for turning-in to some NPC to gain an item. And you can be certain that any good item will have such levels of competition surrounding those quest item drops that you'll spend days just trying to get a shot at killing the monsters which drop them.

There was a comic strip I saw once, which really captured the mood of MMORPGs. There was a fire dragon named Lord Nagafen, who was one of the only two dragons in the entire game you could kill at that point. He spawned once a week, and guilds would rush to kill him, often getting into long flame wars over who had killing rights. This comic showed Lord Nagafen's Secretary facing hordes of players, saying "I'm sorry, he's all booked-up to be killed for this month. Can I pencil you in for next?"

I'm not trying to say that MMORPGs aren't fun, because I certainly had a good time playing EQ (even if it was horribly debilitating in the end), but the experience is nothing like an RPG. The best thing that can be said about them is their dungeons can be quite nice to look at, and killing stuff is a much more streamlined process than roll-this calculate-that. Which is fine for them, since the entire POINT of them is loot. I know there's this idea that D&D is all about item acquisition, but honestly, it pales in comparison to EQ.

 

[Turjan]

I like Palladium. The books are large, informative and affordable.

This is a nice example why we should be careful with internet talk. It's cool to make jokes about Palladium without fear of retaliation. Even if it's true that the Palladium system is pretty bad, I guess that most people here will call a few Palladium books their own. In the end, it probably doesn't matter that much what I say about the company, as long as I buy their books .

Those endless threads about the new "Ultimate Rifts" are a good example. People ridicule the book and the fact that the system still hasn't been updated. They engage in endless slander feasts. And nearly everybody does so by citing passages from his own copy of the book .

 

[Dinkeldog]

Remember to be polite while discussing this topic, everyone.

 

[Turjan]

It's not that I don't enjoy playing NWN or the like, but I miss the lame jokes, the beer, and the general comradery.

You know, the lame jokes and the beer still exist, even if if the micro might interfere with the beer . There's also some kind of general comradery, even if it's of the virtual kind, but I know that some of those people meet in person from time to time.

A friend of mine has transferred most of his D&D campaigns to NWN, because of scheduling problems. In the beginning, it was a steep learning curve with all the involved scripting, etc. In the meanwhile, he's very fast at putting a module together. It works quite okay, although the visuals get boring after some time. For further socializing, there's a big board meeting in a castle once a year, and regional meetings are more often.

Don't underestimate the possibilities .