• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

The Mathematical Model of the d20 System

AllisterH

First Post
I don't think the +25 vs + 10 makes a lick of a difference in the sweet spot debate mainly because the wizard in said situation doesn't care about the difference.

I think the problem comes when it is a +25 vs +15 for two classes that are expected to both use the same method of resolving it, namely attacking.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Johnny Angel

Explorer
Wulf Ratbane said:
a) I'd remove certain types of bonuses and/or how they stack;
b) I'd drastically curtail player control/customization vis-a-vis Item Creation.
Do you suppose this is why they've more-or-less eliminated the magic item creation rules, replacing them with something much more vague? I thought it odd that they discussed the loss of specific mechanics for determining the value of magic items as though this was a feature. So, the system is wonky and their great plan for a substutite is... nothing? But if the plan is actually to de-democratize magic item creation to make it harder for players to min/max, that might make more sense.

Personally, I love the fact that they came up with a system for working out the value of a magic item. I also think the mechanic of having the value of your magic items limited by level gives a GM something to work with at least in determining how much loot to give out. But it tends to end up with everybody selling off interesting quirky items of the kind that used to become part of a character's identity in 2nd edition, because in 3rd edition they can outright buy items that boost key combat stats. Furthermore, the players are less motivated in accumulating wealth, as illustrated here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0158.html
 

AllisterH

First Post
Johnny Angel said:
Do you suppose this is why they've more-or-less eliminated the magic item creation rules, replacing them with something much more vague? I thought it odd that they discussed the loss of specific mechanics for determining the value of magic items as though this was a feature. So, the system is wonky and their great plan for a substutite is... nothing? But if the plan is actually to de-democratize magic item creation to make it harder for players to min/max, that might make more sense.

Who is "They?" WOTC or Paizo?
 

AllisterH said:
I don't think the +25 vs + 10 makes a lick of a difference in the sweet spot debate mainly because the wizard in said situation doesn't care about the difference.

I think the problem comes when it is a +25 vs +15 for two classes that are expected to both use the same method of resolving it, namely attacking.
A good example might be Fighter vs Rogue, or, even better, Fighter vs Monk. All three classes rely on melee or ranged attacks, and they can accumulate a considerably difference in attack bonus. The Monk has medium BAB, and can not enhance his normal attacks as well as the Fighter his weapon attacks.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
AllisterH said:
I don't think the +25 vs + 10 makes a lick of a difference in the sweet spot debate mainly because the wizard in said situation doesn't care about the difference.

I think the problem comes when it is a +25 vs +15 for two classes that are expected to both use the same method of resolving it, namely attacking.

Or escaping a grapple...
 

Wulf Ratbane said:
Or escaping a grapple...
That's an even better example, especially since it's a direct competition between attacker and defender. Though I always thought that this could have been one of the easiest to fix - give no size modifiers at all (large creatures already have a high Str and a lot of HD for BAB), or never exceed a single +4 modifier. At least, it could work theoretically, if HD, STR and BAB were not already so incredibly off between PCs and NPCs...
 

occam

Adventurer
Wulf Ratbane said:
I think 3e's problems in this regard are closer to this:

1) Too many ways to accumulate bonuses make the gap appear faster (ie, bonus stacking issues)

2) Players have way too much control over their ability to accumulate those bonuses.

I'd fix one, if not both, of those things, before I'd move to a 1/2 level +X flat scale for all classes.

Absolutely right, and it seems that 4e is trying to prevent those things, too. But the problem with the 3e progression is that you end up with inevitable large gaps. At 20th level, the gap between the best and worst BAB is +10, and between good and bad saves is +6. On top of that, you're generally better off improving your strengths (through ability scores, feats, and magic items), so the actual gaps become much larger. It's built into the system.

So a wizard, for example, sucks at anything that requires an attack roll, at least vs. normal AC. She needs ways around it, which she gets with spells that target touch AC (which can be absurdly low), Fortitude or Will saves (which can also be absurdly low), or massive-damage area attacks that still do damage even on a failed save (barring evasion). The smart wizard can choose her targets appropriately, making the effects much more devastating, due to the variation between good and bad defenses. Thus, we find ourselves at the point where the fighter feels incompetent in combat, serving only as a front-line damage sponge while the wizard cleans up the opponents. While not everyone feels that way about higher-level melee combatants, many do, and it's a big issue for them (and the reason that Bo9S was so well-received).

In the 3e sweet spot, characters have enough choice in their attacks and enough staying power to make things interesting, and the variations in good/bad attacks/defenses per character and between characters are broad enough to make a meaningful difference, but not so broad that they inevitably make anyone feel useless in some important aspect of combat. The idea behind the +1/2 per level in 4e (as I understand it, not having seen the system yet) is to keep everyone on the same scale, while allowing the scale to increase so that you get the traditional D&D feel of ever-increasing power and skill. The variation will come in the form of (a relatively small number of) bonuses due to class, weapon, magic, feats, etc., and more choices on everyone's part to direct attacks against different defenses.

I share part of your feeling that the +1/2 bonus per level might have the effect of mushing everyone into feeling too similar. I'm hopeful that there are enough meaningful bonuses that it won't be an issue in play, while not so many that they run away with the game.
 



occam said:
I share part of your feeling that the +1/2 bonus per level might have the effect of mushing everyone into feeling too similar. I'm hopeful that there are enough meaningful bonuses that it won't be an issue in play, while not so many that they run away with the game.
The 4E approach seems to be to give everyone powers which have a distinct "feel" or "theme" appropriate for each class. It's not your numbers that define you, it's what these numbers will do to your enemies and allies.
Firing a Magic Missile or swinging a sword to throw your enemy feel very different from each other, even if both sides numerical bonuses are the same (or come out the same taking into account the different defenses).

Off course, this might lead to entire new ways to break the system. ;)

Personally, I like this approach, but I still wonder if there are different ways to reach a distinct class profile together with achieving a sweet spot. Maybe Wulf will find one. ;)
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top